Dr. Sara Kuburic - Self-Loss and Finding Authenticity

In this episode of Let’s Talk Love, Robin sits down with Dr. Sara Kuburic (@millennial.therapist) to discuss themes of self-loss, authenticity, and personal responsibility. They explore how we can drift away from who we truly are—and the steps to reconnect with ourselves. Drawing from her book It’s On Me, Dr. Sara shares her own experience with self-loss and explains how living inauthentically can lead to self-betrayal and disconnection, highlighting why reclaiming our sense of self is essential for fulfillment. Together, they discuss how relationships shape our identity, what freedom and responsibility truly mean, and the daily choices that support living authenticity. This conversation is a powerful invitation to reflect on who we are, what we value, and how we can take ownership of our lives.

Takeaways:

• Creating meaning in life is an active process.
• Our daily habits reflect our true values.
• Self-discovery requires observing our thoughts and feelings.
• Reconnecting with the self involves understanding and connecting with our body, mind, and emotions.
• Asking 'What did I learn about myself today?' fosters growth.
• Self-loss is a prevalent issue that many people face.
• Panic attacks can be a physical manifestation of deeper issues.
• Awareness is the first step towards making meaningful changes.
• Therapy can provide a space for self-discovery and healing.
• Understanding the difference between inauthenticity and self-loss is crucial. 

We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Links:
Book - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/700579/its-on-me-by-sara-kuburic/
Website - https://www.sara-kuburic.com/

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Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today we are welcoming our guest from Sydney, Australia, Dr Sara Kuburic. Sara is the millennial therapist for those of you that know her on Instagram. So thank you for joining us, Sara, all the way from Australia.

Dr. Sara Kuburic l Oh my gosh,thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here from Australia. 

Robin Ducharme | I'm so excited, too. My best friend and I backpacked through Australia for eight well, I guess it was eight months together, and it was like one of my favorite times in my life. So the fact that you're in that beautiful spot in the world is just, um, brings brings happiness to my heart. 

Dr. Sara Kuburic l Oh that is so it's so sweet. I feel like you've probably seen more Australia than I have then, because I just moved here fairly recently, and I've never backed back through the entire country. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah we were on a mission. We did it like we saw a lot of the country. And it's absolutely stunning. Sara, I had the pleasure of reading your book this week. It's On Me. I'm gonna hold it up. There's a little mirror right there. There's a reason for the mirror. It's all on you, baby and I and there's a lot of reflection. There's a lot of reflection and awareness that went into reading this book, because it does point back to really taking accountability and responsibility for your life. And I just want to, I'm excited to dive into all that you shared in your book. You talked a lot about your personal experiences. So let's start with, you're an existential therapist. Can you please explain to us what that is? 

Dr. Sara Kuburic l It's a made up job. No. So every therapist has a modality or a theory from which they practice. So if you're an attachment therapist, you're often going to look for people's attachment. If you're a family systems therapist, you're going to look at family systems. And so we all have something that we sort of focus on. And as an existentialist, I focus on existential concepts like responsibility, authenticity, meaning isolation, so on and so forth, death, very upbeat stuff. And so when I'm talking to a client, when I'm looking at a problem, when I'm just trying to sort of understand what is unfolding, this is sort of the lens that I use to understand it. And so every therapist has their own preferred lens. And so this is just mine, and it's rooted in existential philosophy.

Robin l Yeah and so your book is called It's On Me. Accept hard truths, discover yourself and change your life. So what what was the purpose of writing your book before we dive into like all you know, I dog eared a lot of the pages and 

Dr. Sara l So sweet. Thanks for reading it. Um, of course, very honored. I remember my agents were like, Sara, if you can write absolutely anything, what would it be? And this is before we even pitched the book. And I sat there and I was like, I want to write a book that I wish I had when I was 20, or really even now. But like, I just really want to write a book that I needed and I didn't have. I want to write about a concept that is so prevalent as did we experience this so often, and yet no one has the word for it, and people are so confused, and people mislabel it all the time. And so I just kind of sat there being like, okay, self loss is something that's come up for me, personally, something that's come up in my empirical research, something that's come up with my clients. So let me try to put this into a book, into something that's a little accessible, and so truly was like a love letter to my formal self, and also kind of like a love letter to anyone who's ever felt lost,

Robin l Yes, and so that's really what your book is about. Sara is self loss. So how do you you said people don't understand that that's what's going on, but it is so prevalent. 

Dr. Sara l Yeah 

Robin l I mean, I can say that about myself. I definitely lost myself. Like, for instance, in my second marriage, like,  

Dr. Sara l Yeah

Robin l And I, and I dog eared. You know, I've got all these like, but like, I could see, like, you've got a list of ways that that, how that can show up, 

Dr. Sara l Yeah

Robin l And you, you tell a story in the beginning of your book about you having what you later discovered was your first, like, a panic attack, right? Can you, can you tell that story Sara?

Dr. Sara l Yeah

Robin l What happened and how that and how you realized that that was, like, that was self loss, yeah, materializing in your physical

Dr. Sara l Like, how, at first, I'm like, Yeah, this thing's self lost that people are so unaware of, but I'm so aware of, but that's really not how that happened at all. As in, I was not aware of it until I was suffering with it. It was not something that so what happened let me tell you the story. Was in grad school, I was in my early 20's, and I was sort of thriving, quote, unquote, meaning I was doing well. I was a good student. I got married really young, and people like, wow, how did you find the one so quickly? That's insane. You know, I was helping in the community. I looked a certain way. I did all the things that you're supposed to do, and people are just patting me on the back. And I was in my early 20's, and I remember just sort of going through life, not realizing how I felt about it at all, because I was like, I'm doing it. I'm doing what I'm expected to do, period, no self awareness, no evaluation, no evaluation of any kind, just because I was getting so much external validation for what I was doing. And I was like, great, I'm killing it. And then I went on a little girls trip with my sister to Vegas, and both of us don't drink. So when I see a girl trip, I literally mean, like, sitting by the pool eating a lot of food, like it was just like this really relaxing time where I got to spend, you know, hours and hours talking to one of my best friends. And we it kind of paused my real life as well. And so then I remember starting to pack to go home a week later, and I just like, wasn't feeling well. I was not feeling well. I was starting to sweat. And I was like, okay, like, it is very hot. Maybe I got a heat stroke, whatever. Then I got to the airport, and I was feeling worse and worse. Things were kind of blurring, and I was just overwhelmed thinking about everything that was kind of waiting for me once I get off that plane. And then I got on the plane, and as I was like, buckling up, I sort of lost all control, meaning I thought I was going to die, and I started to sweat, and I just sort of had this panic that was like, I have to get off the flight. And so people were still boarding on, and I honestly kind of blacked out. I don't remember, but I think that shoved people out of the way, and got off the flight. And when I got to the gate, my sister sort of followed me with all our stuff, and she's like, are you okay? I started to sort of go into paralysis. So first I lost function of my limbs. So my hands, they were sort of like claws. They were very like she was trying to straighten them out, and she couldn't. So my hands went in, and I just, like, clawed. And so she thought I was having a stroke, so she called the doctor. It was this whole thing where she's like, my sister is like, not moving. She can't really process things. I'm asking her, like, what, what am I going to do anyways then I started to lose, sort of my function of speech, and because everything was sort of numbing, and I couldn't move my jaw, and it was horrifying. And I thought I was actually going to die because I thought I was having a stroke. The paramedics came, and I still remember, they were very nonchalant. They were like, oh, you're having a panic attack. And I was like, What do you mean? You're having a panic like I was just they were so chill about it. they were making jokes. They gave me a paper bag. They gave me a pill of some kind, I don't remember, and they're like, You're gonna be fine. Give me, like, 20 minutes. And they were just like, chilling. They were I just made their day. They thought they were actually like, didn't have to deal with an emergency. They're like, this is a good day. And I just remember being like, I just stared at death. 

Robin l Right

Dr. Sara l How are you be making jokes and having a good time around me? And so that's when I realized that that was a panic attack. But then I persisted to have them every couple hours, which then just felt like a very, very  

Robin l Oh wow

Dr. Sara l Couple weeks. That was a very long story,

Robin l No, and so, So Sara, what like tell us about what happened after that? Because this is how you discovered, like, I'm not living the life that I want in so many ways. 

Dr. Sara l Yeah

Robin l How did you like that was that was definitely like a physical manifestation of of like you feeling completely just like separate from your life, that the life that you wanted to lead, I guess, like, how did you discover all those things that led to that panic attack?

Dr. Sara l So I think while I was having it, I remember thinking, I'm so willing to let go of anything if it means I get to live another day. Like it was that moment of like, I'm willing to burn every bridge, let go of every relationship, quit anything I need to quit if I just get another chance. And so it was this, like, very prominent thought in my head and and when I went back home, I was like, wow, that was uncomfortable. And I went back to living my normal life. At no point. Did I actually change anything.Because this is, like, what humanity does. And I was like, No, I mean, like, yeah, that was rough, and maybe I should look into things, but like, I'm not actually going to so I went back to living my normal life, and then I started to get panic attacks so frequently that I couldn't so I ended up seeing a therapist, and then my work with her, she was like, okay, let's talk about some things that could be causing this. And I would love to sit here and be like I was so aware. I figured it all out on my own, but truly was a therapist sitting across from me being like, oh, your childhood experiences a war. Have you have you dealt with that? Or like, how is your marriage? Or how are you feeling about the roles that you're taking on? And so she was a really large sort of part of me discovering what wasn't working for me and what wasn't me.

Robin l Right. So in your in your clinical practice, like when you're working with people, and they're coming into your office with, like, you give examples of a number of people that are just like, coming in for one problem, right? But then you're discovering it's like, you're seeing the theme that a lot of people are are experiencing self loss, 

Dr. Sara l Yeah, yeah,

Robin l Yeah. So, I guess my question is, like, how, how do you, how do you approach that with people, like, going, like, right? Because that's, that's a big thing. Like, it just like, you know, I think, I think when it comes to intimate relationships, people, people lose themselves in relationships that is so common, or you're in the job that you just like you're totally miserable in but hey, it's paying the bills, actually, maybe more than that, like you're making really, really good money, and you're like, Okay, I'll just stick with it, right? So it's just like you're sacrificing pieces of yourself, a lot of yourself, for the wrong reasons, possibly.

Dr. Sara l Yeah and you know, I know we're throwing around the word self loss. I don't scare my clients like that. Usually

Robin l No okay, there's top losses out of your title, and it's not even your subtitles 

Dr. Sara l I don't scare them. But I think what's interesting, like, let's say that you're someone who loses themselves in relationships, which is definitely something I've done chronically in the past, even having like, a little hypothetical discussion can be helpful. So going like, Oh, you guys have decided to X, Y and Z. I'm curious if you were single. I'm curious if your finances weren't tied. I'm curious if you didn't have children, would your decision be different? How would it be different? So you do all of these sort of scenarios, not in a way of like, what you're doing is wrong and you shouldn't be doing it, because obviously, we do things for a reason, and we find so much value in this relationship that we're willing to sacrifice something as important as us. So attacking that makes no sense, but I think exploring it and maybe sort of highlighting to the client of like, hey, there are ways you maybe would have approached us differently, or been able to express yourself differently, or get something different if you weren't in this relationship, starts to get their wheels turning in terms of, am I actually doing what works for me, or is the focus really on the other person, or this specific dynamic? So it can be a lot of it can be playful, it can be serious, but it's a lot of exploration of like, alternative scenarios. And I think that that sometimes can be really helpful for the client to start to realize, like, Oh, I'm not acting how I actually want to act. And I think that awareness is the very first step, the awareness, the awareness is, is the first step right to make change.

Robin l Absolutely it is. So Sarah, in the book I I wrote down this quote because you're talking about the difference between inauthenticity, living your life in authentically versus self loss, and you say living in authentically, it's like deep sea diving, actually swimming away from the surface, but still being aware of where the surface is. I like this analogy, whereas self loss, on the other hand, is like being caught in a strong underwater current, knowing you have to swim, but having no idea in which direction you want you should go, yeah? So it's almost like inauthenticity is like, you know that you're that you're in, that you're acting out of integrity or, like, in, like, right? Yeah? Whereas self loss is like, Okay, I just got to swim with the current. I don't know. I don't even know which way I'm going or how to get out of it, yeah, does that? Is that how the analogy, or 100%

Dr. Sara l bring it? So being inauthentic is, like not being aligned. You're like, I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be texting them back. I shouldn't be taking on those extra hours. Okay, I shouldn't have spoken to my partner that way. Yikes. Okay, like I am aware that I am off Route like I am. I'm doing this wrong, and I need to get back to something that's more aligned. Self loss is completely different, because that analogy is supposed to sort of portray the threat of it. When you are swimming away from the surface, you're very aware that the second you need to breathe, you know where you're going, and your next breath is coming from when you're in self loss. You don't you actually think that you're existentially sort of dying because you are. You're not really yourself anymore. And it's like, look, I don't know if you've ever had this moment when you look in a mirror and you're like, Who the heck are you? Or maybe that's just me, but it's really this intense sensation of like, I'm staring at a stranger. I'm not really sure who this person is, or watching your actions, like you're doing something, and you're like, shocking yourself, surprising yourself, and not in a good way. And you're watching these patterns, and you're like, Well, I never thought I was a person that would do x y and z, but over time, you're like, I am a person that's doing X, Y and Z, and I don't even that doesn't align with who I thought I would be. Like, it's this complete confusion, this complete abandonment and this complete aloneness. I think you feel so empty and so scared, and that's what self loss is. It's not like a temporary whoops, I made a mistake that doesn't align. It's like this state of existence that happens over time, usually, where you wake up one day being like, What the hell is my life like? How did I wake up married? How did I wake up living this and this, or having this job or prioritizing this thing like it's it's really this moment of like, shock, almost. Right? And so that's what happens. That's what self love. That's why it's so different and so much more painful than just being inauthentic, right?

Robin l So on page 92 had like, I've put so many notes, and I've got like, stickies. 

Dr. Sara l I love it

Robin l And, and this, this is, this is about you were talking about. It's on authenticity in your life and self betrayal. And you say in my practice and research, I've observed that self betrayal occurs most frequently in romantic relationships. So it could look like and I put arrows by all the things right that I was resonating with in my second marriage, like I was totally betraying myself in so many ways, silencing your voice or your intuition because it threatens your relationship, accepting less than you deserve, compromising your beliefs and values that definitely apologizing for things that are not your fault, not speaking up for your needs, crossing your own boundaries in order to make your partner happy, lie in order to keep the peace, making yourself small in order to for others to feel better about themselves, sacrificing your autonomy. So the list goes on. But you know, I really think that so many people can resonate with doing these things if you're in an unhealthy relationship, if you're in a relationship where it's like all of those things are like dismissing yourself,

Dr. Sara l Yeah, of course. And I think what's interesting is, when we are in these situations, I'm gonna offer a hot take, we're always like, well, the partner must be absolute shit, you know, it must be their fault that you're doing this. And part of me is like, yes, in certain contexts, of course, it takes two to create a dynamic like that, or maybe they're actually abusive, and that is your response to keep yourself safe. I would also like to point out that sometimes this is us offering something the other person didn't even ask us to give. There are contexts in which we betray ourselves because we think our partner wants that version of us, especially at the start of our relationship. And then, of course, that's what they start to expect years into their relationships, in their marriage, because they're like, well, this is how they present it at the start. And so a lot of us actually start to betray really, really quickly.

Early on, super early on, like on a first date, you won't really see that you hate camping because they like camping. And that sounds like a really ridiculous little white lie, but it's not, because at the end of the day, you're gonna end up spending hours and hours, weekends and weekends doing something that doesn't align and doesn't express who you are. You're gonna build resentment, and it's going to become this huge thing where you go, why didn't I speak up for myself? Why am I not spending things time on things that actually hold value. Why am I lying? Why am I hiding myself? And it'll become this huge thing. And so often, the self betrayal starts really early on, and it's more of a mindset where it's like this person means so much more than I mean to myself, or keeping this person is so much more important than keeping the integrity that I have. And that's also like as a society, and I would venture especially for women, we've been conditioned that having a relationship is the most important thing in your life, and that's where the meaning comes from. And so of course, we're gonna do that, because we've been taught like, this is the most important thing, so we're gonna give anything we can to keep it. But self betrayal is an interesting thing, where a lot of the times I betrayed myself because I kind of felt like I had to. Then there were also a lot of times I betrayed my I wasn't really asked to do that, and I did it anyways.

Robin l That's such a good point. Sara, great point. So there you give, you're talking about a client, and you see this, and you're, I mean, we can all resonate with this one, where it's just like you're unhappy in your life about something pretty big, but you're not wanting to change it. You're not willing to change it. You don't want to take responsibility for it or make the choice. 

Dr. Sara l Yeah

Robin l You talk about responsibility, choice and freedom, freedom. Okay, oh my god, so let's, let's break down freedom. Because when I, when I started reading about this through you, and I'm like, this is a big concept, but it's like, with freedom comes the responsibility to make the choice,

Dr. Sara l I know, and you feel connected I know.

Robin l Can you talk about that, Sara? Because that was, like, a big aha for me, because people misunderstand what freedom is. 

Dr. Sara l Yeah I think people think freedom is a hall pass. Yeah. They're like, great, I do whatever I want. And I'm like, Excuse me, let's just talk about the correlation between freedom and responsibility. And this is really important to know, the more free you are to make a decision, the more responsible you are for that decision. Let's take a work example, if you're the CEO and you made the ultimate decision. Guess whose responsibility it is if something goes wrong? CEOs probably well, if you're someone right, if you're like a clerk, or if you're a secretary at the firm, and that decision goes wrong, even though you're the one that typed it, is anyone going to blame you? Yeah. Probably not because you had no freedom in making that decision. So the more freedom, the more responsibility. But I think he also works the other way around. I think when we take responsibility for our lives, we experience more freedom. It's not just a one way street you get to when you take responsibility, you actually get to live the life that you want. And to me, that's ultimate freedom. And so I do think that this relationship is not something we like to talk about in society, because responsibility, oftentimes is used as a synonym for like, it's not about blame at all. It's about accountability. It's about empowerment. It's about liberation. And so to me, I wanted to take back the word responsibility.

Robin l Yes, I think responsibility and accountability are so important,

Dr. Sara l Yeah, especially in relationships of any kind. 

Robin l Yes

Dr. Sara l I  have some, oh, sorry, 

Robin l Go ahead. 

Dr. Sara l No, I was gonna say I have something like a 5% rule, or, like, it's called 5% so whenever someone's telling me a story where they're really upset about an interaction they've had or something going wrong, I go, You know what? It sounds, really terrible. Or, yeah, they really, they said some really hurtful things. But I will always ask, if we had to find 5% of your responsibility in this interaction, just five or two, what would it be? I always get my clients to practice finding their responsibility in any interaction, because it's very, very infrequent that they will have none, or that we have absolutely no responsibility in what unfolded. And so that's kind of the exercise that I do with myself, with my clients, is like, what's the 5% and that's essentially me asking, how sorry, how did you contribute to whatever unfolded. 

Robin l Excellent. So being an existential therapist, you are looking at life through, you know, like, I would like, the way I see it is like, like, from a higher perspective, it's like the big picture, right? And so people are like, and I think this is just the question that we, a lot of us ask, is, like, why am I here? What's the meaning in life, what's my purpose, right? And so when people are asking you that, Sara, I mean, that's such a big you can't give people that answer, you know. But how are you guiding people to actually come, to come closer, to understand, just seeing, like, my What is my purpose? What's my meaning in the meaning in life, right? Like, what am I here to do? Or be like, yeah, yeah. I'm sure people are talking about that with you all the time, 

Dr. Sara l All the time. I think something that I do initially has changed a vocabulary around it. So meaning is not something you find, because that's passive, it's something you create. I don't think that there is at least existentially. I don't believe there is a meaning that was meant for you and you either grab onto it or you miss the train. I think you get to create what meaning and what is meaningful. And so something I say is you have to have meaningful days to have a meaningful life.

Robin l Yes Oh  I like that. Lot

Dr. Sara l A lot of people just have this umbrella of like, my life is gonna mean this, or I'm gonna dedicate my life to this huge cause, and then they don't have any value, any self expression, any sort of draw and engagement with life on a day to day basis. And to me, you're never gonna achieve a meaningful life that way. And so we see it as a really huge like a question mark, or a really big thing that we're accomplishing, like a mountain, and really is taking one step at a time of being like, how, how can I create meaning today? How can I make sure I'm doing things that are meaningful for me today, and that can be conversations, watching the sunset, working on that manuscript that you want to submit in 10 years, like it's it's really being intentional about doing things that give you value. And that's going to change. I think that's the other misconception, is that there's going to be this one big meaning in your life, and that's it. When I think meaning and identity are really, really connected. What was meaningful to me when I was a teen is not meaningful to me now it might, and that's normal. And so your meaning is meant to shape, and like shape around your identity and evolve and develop and change. And so we need to allow it otherwise. Well, if we just keep doing it, although it started off as something meaningful, maybe stopped being meaningful years ago, and so now you're experiencing burnout and emptiness and lack of fulfillment. That's probably because you didn't upgrade your meaning or what you thought your life was all abou

Robin l Right. And you talk about habits in your book, yes, right? So I think that's, that's one way that you can help, like, see within yourself, like, how am I spending and values, right? You could say I value this, but actually, is your time spent on the things you value? 

Dr. Sara l Yeah

Robin l Because if your life is it's like, if you take an inventory of your week, day in, day out, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and how you're spending all your time, you can say, okay, these are the habits. These are my daily things that I'm doing. Yeah, this is how I'm spending my time, which is a reflection of what I value.

Dr. Sara l Oh, my God, I love that you said that. When people ask me, like, how can you how can I teach people about values or show them what they value? I was like, show them their calendar. Right. Like, the things you value is the things you're going to spend most time on. And, for example, someone's like, well, I'm scrolling on Tiktok. What does that mean? What do I value? Like, that can be a value, and it'd be like, that is still self regulation for most people, or that's escapism for most people, or maybe that's connection for some people. So my I never dismissed that. I go, Okay, you spent six hours on Tiktok today. Let's talk about like, Why do you like being on Tiktok? What do you feel like you got from that? And if they go, Well, nothing, it was just Doom scrolling, they'd be like, okay, they're probably trying to self regulate, but everyone will have a reason as to why they're doing it, even if it is self regulation. Then I'll go, well, that's your value. And so regardless of what you're doing, if you're playing video games, if you're cleaning, if you're working, if you're talking to someone on the phone, there's always a well, why are you doing that? Amazing? You have just found your value for the most part.

Robin l And so if somebody is, let's just say you've got an example of somebody that's spending six hours on Tiktok,

Dr. Sara l Yeah which is not unusual

Robin l Ok this is why you're the millennial therapist at 47, I don't even know what generation I'm part of, what my like, I'm not a millennial.

You're close to a millennial. You're X I think?

Ok. That shows my age, right there. Like, no, I love it, knowing what generation part of 

Dr. Sara l It's for the best 

Robin l Hours. Okay, we've got six hours on Tiktok, okay, yeah, and you're saying that, let's just say you've drilled it down somebody. You've discovered that that person is self regulating, sure, by being on Tiktok, okay,

Dr. Sara l They can be Yeah. 

Robin l It could be, could be,

Dr. Sara l Yeah. 

Robin l So that is saying, that's showing that that's one of their values?

Dr. Sara l Yeah. So let's say that it's their attempt to self regulate. Like, they don't know how to self soothe, so they're trying to soothe. So you can be like, Okay, right now what why your value is, is to, like, feel a little better. So now that I know what your value is I can be like, is there other alternatives that will make you feel better A, quicker and B actually work? Because I don't think tiktoks are doing that, but it is distracting you, and that's making you feel better about the argument you're having with your partner, or that's making you feel whatever. Or maybe you're scrolling because you're posting a lot, and then you're waiting for all the likes to come and all the comments to come, and so it's the validation that you're genuinely seeking for now that one's hard because these are like, things that your intrinsic needs, that you're trying to get from the outside. And so that is a value gets very complicated, but let's take an easier example of or maybe you're on Tiktok, and all you're doing is talking to your friends on your DMS. So then I'd be like, okay, a connection. Connection is a value for you, amazing. So now we know that you spend six hours a day trying to connect. Let's talk about that. Is that the most helpful way to do that? Is that the most direct way to do that? Do we want to split it up a bit? Do we want to shake it up? And I'm not always looking at people's calendars to try to change their routine, but it's just like, let's talk about what really matters to you. And so if connection is something that matters to you, are you aware of that? And so it is a cool thing to watch. And the reason I brought up the Tiktok example is because people will be like, well, there's no value in that. And I never dismiss any activity someone spends substantial amount of time on, because there has to be a value. There has to be a need that's being fulfilled. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. Humans do not operate on wasting their time. Humans always do things to get something. And so what is that something? So I think we're being very dismissive when we when we take people's hobbies, we're like, or how like their free time, and we're like, Well, this is a waste, obviously not a value. And it's like there's a reason that out of anything they could have done, they chose this, 

Robin l Right. So, Sara, tell, tell me, like in, you know, on the years that you've been doing this, I know you wrote your book about this, how are you helping people, like, in their day to day, like, identify, like, way where they may be misaligned, okay? Or losing pieces of them themselves, and get back to like a place of feeling okay, I'm on track. I feel whole. I feel, you know, at peace or content in a life, and not just content, but thriving in the life I'm living, right? Because you're seeing this as actually a very prevalent theme in people's lives, of self loss. I mean, I've definitely experienced it. And I'm sure some people, like a lot of people, have different ways. So how can we identify that and get back to like feeling good and like living a life that you're really happy with?

Dr. Sara l Yeah, so sometimes the contrast can be helpful. And what I mean by that is I will get clients to do a little activity where I'll be like, give me five examples of when you felt the most like yourself ever. And it can be you driving in a car late at night, playing your favorite song, the windows are down. It can be like on your wedding day, or it can be talking to your girlfriends. It doesn't matter. But what was that moment like? And I'll get them to really describe it like, what was it like in your body? What emotions were you feeling? What thoughts were you having? And they kind of get to then sense what that intimacy was like, and then they get to see how they feel and think and connect to themselves now .That can be like, a helpful sort of activity, to just be like, I am, maybe not where I thought I was, and I was drifting, and I didn't realize it, and being like, do you want that intimacy again? Just sort of getting the motivation back? And I think when people realize that they don't know who they are, a lot of the times, truly, it's not detective work, they'll go, Sara, I have no idea who I am, or like, I have no idea what to do. And the reason you wouldn't know what to do oftentimes, is because, like, I can't make a really good, informed decision for you, for example, because I met you today, that would be absurd. They were like, what would be her favorite dinner? I'd be like, I don't, you know, but that's how that's the guessing game we do for ourselves and we like, should I date this person? Should I take this, you know, new job? And it's like, but I don't know who. I don't know who I'm choosing these things for, because I don't know myself well enough to make this decision. So when I see people who are feeling really indecisive, really torn up about things, it's because they probably don't know themselves well enough to make a quick or intentional decision. And so this is sort of the things that we talk about and process. And a lot of them will realize that, like, wow, I don't know myself. They might not know the word self loss, but they'll be like for a really long time, since I've had a child, since I got married, since I moved to this country, I have just not felt like myself. So I'll look for these key sort of phrases, and then what I say is, getting to know yourself is not very different than, for example, the two of us getting to know each other. There'll be questions. We'll be listening, I'll be observing what you're doing, and think about going on a first date. You're like, super hyper focused. You're like, oh my god, their body language is slightly tilted towards me, and I see their feet they're pointing. I've seen somewhereTikTok that if their feet are point, they must mean they love me, you know, like, it's like, these little things that we really focus on, like we're trying to soak the person in. And what would happen if we did that with ourselves? If we're like, hey, I crossed my arms when someone asked me a question, what was that all about? Hey, I felt like I did a really big sigh after I ended that conversation with my mom. I'm so curious, but we'd pay attention. I don't think it's a lot of detective work, because I think if we just were attuned to what our body and our mind and our feelings were actually telling us, think we would figure out pretty quickly who we were in that moment. Now, I think who we are constantly involves and you can change that by the decisions that you make, utilizing that freedom that we talked about, but I think what I get my clients to do is to get that excited and observing about themselves, and so often I'll break that down into, like, the three categories, which is your mind, your emotions and your body. And really I I'll get them to make a list of the three, and then I'll say, rank them. Which one are you most disconnected with? Which one do you feel like you have the most of like, close of our relationship with? So for me, my mind and I have always been really good friends. My emotions, not so much my body, my God, absolutely not like I barely acknowledged its existence unless it was in pain or, like I got sick. And so it was an interesting thing to see where, how each client ranks it, and then being like, okay, where are we going to going to start? Which part of you do want to get really acquainted with, and they will start to form that relationship. But I don't think that you can ignore any one of these three and be authentic or be your true self. They're all equally important. There is no actual hierarchy in them. And so really just paying attention to connecting to these things every single day itI can be life changing, and it's so simple. It's why people don't want to do it. People are like, well, Sara if you told me to do this crazy exercise and then this and this and this, it's like, then we're more inclined. But when my doctor goes, Sara, drink more water, I'm like, is that really gonna do it? Is that really gonna help? It's too simple.

Robin l It's too simple. It's too easy. No, it's too easy. 

Dr. Sara l No yeah it's not water. So then I don't drink water. Just like, and that's the same thing with this, where I'm just like, yeah, pay attention to your emotions. And people are like, That can't work. That's not gonna make a difference. And I'm like, Okay, well,

Robin l Yeah, you give an example in the book that is just it. When you break it down like that. Sara, thank you. That is so great. It's like I was thinking my mind, my emotions, my body. I've been acquainted with my mind too. Like living in my mind, right? My emotions? Yeah, pretty, pretty. I'm pretty tuned in with my emotions, my body. No, I think that ever since I was little, like, you know, the fat shaming, a lot of us grew up in that. I mean, we're still in that culture

Dr. Sara l Yeah but we're still in it, yes, yeah, 

Robin l I was a 12 year old, the Weight Watchers, now that's a problem

Dr. Sara l Wow yeah, that's exactly, and that's what, I mean, that's, yeah,

Robin l No but and you actually talk about that in a book, is like, how many, how many women, how many girls are it's like, we're hating our bodies, right? And we're walking around that way. And so how can you possibly be so connected to yourself and love yourself when there's no hierarchy between mind, emotions and body? And you're like, just. In your body, you're hating that. And so, oh, sorry. Oh, no. 

Dr. Sara l Oh I think for me, the irony was, when I started to do this repair work is I was the most disconnected from my body, and then I got panic attacks. And I always go, Well, why? But it's like my body had to do something so aggressive for me to pay attention. And if I look back, I can be like, Oh no, my body has tried for years to give more subtle signs for years, and then when I wouldn't listen, and it was like, Sara's gonna get hit by a car unless I stop her, it did the most extreme thing. And when I got my panic attacks at first, I was like, my body hates me. Made me even more scared and made me hate my body even more at the start, because I was like, this thing that I don't even care about is ruining my life. She's ruling over me. In any moment she can decide to essentially shut me down. It was such. I was so angry with my body, and now looking back, I'm like, She saved my life, because if my body did not speak up, I would still be living the way that I was living, which wasn't living at all. And so it was interesting that the thing that I ranked the lowest at was the thing that sort of like had an uprising to get me back on track. And so for me, I think the panic attacks were really connected to the fact that I ignored my body.

Robin l Right . So can you tell us how, in the you know, the time passed as after you were having other panic attacks you're in therapy, like, what, what steps did you take to be, be where you're at now, to be living authentically, and to get yourself back, like, get yourself back 

Dr. Sara l And I self help. There's a lot of, like, five steps to

Robin l Oh no no not like that. There's nothing quick there's nothing quick. There's no quick fix. 

Dr. Sara l Yeah and I was just gonna say it took years, when I say years, like it literally, and I think I'm always gonna be on this journey, but I would say when I started to actually feel like myself, it probably took five years. And for some people it'd be shorter or longer. And for me, it was really a, working on the connection piece that we talked about, and B was making the choices I didn't want to make, but knowing that I had to make them in order to live the life that I wanted, like, really just like, sit myself down and be like, I didn't want to get divorced at like, 24 that was not like, a Yay. I did it. It was filled with shame and disappointment and a sense of failure. And I grew up in a really Christian family, and so it was like, what is everyone gonna think? Like, there was so much pressure. It's not like, I was like, Yay, I get to leave. I get to do these things. And so I think it was doing all the things I didn't want to do, cutting out friends that were not allowing me space to be myself, or have projected so much on me that they couldn't even see me, and then I started to see myself the way that they were seeing me. And so just, you know, changing my environment, I literally lit my life on fire. And when I say that, I want to tell everyone who's listening, you do not need to do the same like it does not have to be that extreme for me, it was changing. I would say 90% of things in my life, from eating habits to how much I focused on school to my friends to my intimate relationships to my family dynamics, like it was changing everything. And so it was sitting down and being really brutally honest and going okay in an ideal world, if I could express myself in such and such a way, in an ideal world, if I wanted to have a relationship with that person, what would it look like, and then seeing if I can achieve that through the freedom that I had, and some I couldn't, and I couldn't salvage those relationships, and some I could, and so, but what I needed to do was think I was worth it. Yes. Do you think that my life was worth it? Otherwise, this is a huge task to do for someone you don't like very much. And so it was like, simultaneously, sort of getting to know myself and being like, Oh, she's kind of a cool girl. I kind of like that about her. Maybe this is like, I can stand up for her. And so it was like a simultaneous, yes, I was making decisions, but I, as I said, I had to first sort of learn who I was in order to make those authentic decisions for myself, and a lot of it was observing and journaling and going to therapy. And it can be as simple as, like, watching a movie and being like, I was upset by this. I was triggered by this. I cried for this. I laughed for this. Why? And doing, like, a fun little like, you know how you would talk to a friend after a movie, be like, what was your favorite part? Oh, my God. And why did you think and having those types of conversations with myself, and so the more I got to know myself, the easier it was to make these decisions and to think that I was worth the effort of making these big changes. 

Robin l Yeah well, I love, I loved your bo

Dr. Sara l Ohhh thank you so much 

Robin l I've got, I've got an 18 year old daughter. I'll pass this book on to her, yeah, and, you know, and I really like that. I really liked that. What you said about you wrote this book like for you're thinking, if I, if I could read this when I was 20 years old, hopefully it would help. And I think it would help. It helps people of any age. Because it just, I think that there's, there's, we live in a society where there is the social media, there's looking outside yourself. And. It's like we're afraid to actually spend a lot of time within

Dr. Sara l Oh, my god, horrifying

Robin l But this book is really about about that it's getting intimate within yourself and getting to know yourself. And I think that's just so valuable, so that you can create the life, create the life that, um, oh, that you're going to be happy with

Dr. Sara l Using the terminology she's bang on, yeah, I love it. 

Robin l It's like, it's like, this. The same idea was, like, you're not like, finding the one, yeah, you're gonna meet somebody and create the relationship, right? 

Dr. Sara l Exactly. So it's not passive, 

Robin l No, there's no pass. It's not passive, no. So thank you, Sara

Dr. Sara l Thank you so much for having me. It's so much fun, and thanks, um, for engaging with the content, because it is, it's not very happy content, and it can get very complex and very convoluted. And so I think sometimes people are like but I love it. When people really want to sink their teeth into it, it makes me very happy.

Robin l Yeah, well, we definitely didn't. I had a lot of discussions about it with my friends this week, so I'm going to close with a blessing based on a lot of the sentiments of your book this week. So may, we know recovering from self loss and being our authentic self feels like being grounded, rooted in a profound and boundless depth of delicious resonance and alignment. It's a feeling of rightness, I think that's and a feeling of being home, that's, that's how I'm feeling in my life, is I feel like, in I'm home in my life, and feeling right about my life, so that I think, I think that's that was well said. May we come to understand being ourself feels like knowing that you live this day and every day on purpose. So observe, feel and try life. May we not let fear limit our decisions, allow our lives to be riddled with lessons and triumphs, moments of intensity and sorrow as well as sweetness. And may we keep asking, what did I learn about myself today? I like that. I like that's a good journal prompt. What did I learned about myself today, it's not to be nothing right

Dr. Sara l Yeah, I like it because, literally, the second you read it, I was like, Oh my God, how did I not say this up to this point, that's my go to answer for at least one podcast question. Because I'm like, it applies to everything. It's like, what did I learn about myself today? It's one of my all time favorite questions. 

Robin l Oh it's so good. I'm gonna put that at the top of my journal for tonight. So thank you very much Sara

Dr. Sara l Thank you so much.