Francesca Hogi - Love, Intention, and Finding Your Best Match

This week on Let’s Talk Love, Robin is joined by Francesca Hogi —matchmaker, love coach, and author of How to Find True Love—for an enlightening conversation about self-awareness, personal growth, and the journey to meaningful relationships.

Francesca shares her inspiring story of transitioning careers to help others find love, emphasizing the importance of self-love and introspection as foundations for lasting connections. Together, they explore how societal conditioning shapes relationship expectations, the courage it takes to walk away from unfulfilling dynamics, and the role of intentionality in attracting compatible partners. Francesca introduces dating archetypes and highlights the value of aligning personal values with those of a partner, balancing a wish list of traits with deeper compatibility.

Packed with insights from her book and empowering strategies, this episode reminds us that the path to love begins within, encouraging listeners to embrace dating as a journey of self-discovery and growth.

Takeaways:

• How to Find True Love is a valuable resource for dating advice.
• Self-awareness is crucial for successful dating.
• Shifting mindsets can lead to better dating outcomes.
• Someone’s character and values are more important than superficial traits.
• It's essential to be your authentic and genuine self in dating.
• Recognizing limiting beliefs can improve dating success.
• The journey of finding love is a personal growth experience.
• Understanding why you want certain traits in a partner is crucial.
• Focus on the actual experience of being with someone, not just their credentials.
• Personal values play a significant role in relationship satisfaction.
• Readiness, ability, and willingness are key components in a successful relationship.
• Believing in the possibility of love is vital, regardless of statistics.
• Actions speak louder than words in dating; believe what people show you.
• Recognizing and acknowledging relationship patterns is crucial for change.
• The Avoider archetype struggles with dating despite wanting love.
• The Looper archetype experiences repetitive dating patterns.
• Surfers often overvalue chemistry, which can lead to unhealthy relationships.
• Sailors are naturally inclined towards committed relationships but must ensure compatibility.
• Awareness of one’s personal contributions to dating challenges is essential.
• Intention and self-awareness are key to finding lasting love.

We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Links:

Book - https://bookshop.org/p/books/how-to-find-true-love-transcend-the-fairytale-industrial-complex-date-better-and-make-lasting-love-inevitable-francesca-hogi/21721901?ean=9781538769577

Course - https://market.authoritive.com/howtodate

Website - https://francescahogi.com/

FOLLOW FRANCESCA: INSTAGRAM |

Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone. I'm so happy to welcome our guest, Francesca Hogi. Francesca, I've been looking forward to our conversation for weeks, so thank you for joining me today.

Francesca Hogi l Thank you so much, Robin. I'm so excited to talk to you, and this is you're the first person who I'm, who I'm doing an interview with, who's actually read the book. So this is exciting,

Robin Ducharme | I was

Francesca Hogi l Yeah, so I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is really extra exciting for me.

Robin Ducharme | Have you been, have you been receiving feedback from, like, friends, family? Because Francesca, I have to tell you, I loved your book, like, and I read a book a week, like, for work, for my job, and for and, I mean, with all the experts, I mean, I read amazing books with all the incredible experts that we have the pleasure and privilege of interviewing each week, but I'm telling you, Francesca, this was a rock star book. I loved it so much. I really mean that, and so did my best friend, Kirsten. So she and I both read the books, and then we talk about it, and we're like, what did you learn? And you know, we go back and forth. She's single, so we've got to talk about her during this and how she's applying your your wisdom. 

Francesca Hogi l Amazing

Robin l I'm going to hold up your book so it is. It's an excellent book. It's called How to Find Love,Unlock Your Romantic Flow and Create Lasting Relationships. Um, it's just so full of there are definitely some amazing skills. And I like the fact that there's room for people to do some retrospection, of course, within and I just think your perspective is so like, it's, it's on point. 

Francesca l Thank you.Thank you. 

Robin l Thank you for the work you're doing in this world to help people find love. Francesca, 

Francesca l Thank you. And same to you. I mean, listen, you know how you really have to be so mission driven to do this work, you know, like,

Robin l Isn't that the truth! Oh, it's true.

Francesca l It's so true. Because people, it is so hard, it is so hard. We really like a challenge.

Robin l Yeah, we do. We do like a challenge. That's my life, man. It's just full of challenges and a lot of joy. There's a lot of challenges. So Francesca, we have a lot in common. And you so you were working as a lawyer. I don't I'm definitely not a lawyer myself, but you and I both have experience working as matchmakers. So you through the matchmaking Institute, right? You became certified to the matchmaking Institute. So did I

Francesca l I love it

Robin l In 20 13 the same year.

Francesca l Oh, my God. How do we not know each other. 

Robin l I actually don't know because, you know, I didn't spend a lot of time in New York. I would just like to hear your story before we talk, we dive into your book around how you transitioned from being a lawyer to a matchmaker and now love coach. Because I actually found in my my business, too, that matchmaking wasn't for me. Love coaching was

Francesca l Yes, yes, yeah.

Robin l So I'm interested to hear your take on that.

Francesca l Yeah, you know, you know, I'm sure, like, you like, I always had a real focus on romantic love and relationships, really, my whole life. You know, I was a romantic child. I dreamt of growing up and falling in love and, you know, and having great relationships and and then once I realized I, you know, I kind of grew up, and I was a bit of a in a way, I was an early bloomer because I was so focused on romantic love from a young age. But I was also a late bloomer because I didn't really properly start dating until I was in my 20's. And so when I started, and I was a young lawyer in New York City, and I was like, I don't know what. I don't know how to date Like, I literally don't know how to date like, I really want a boyfriend, I really want a relationship, but I don't know how to make that happen. And luckily, I was able to have the perspective of like, okay, I think there's just, like, a skills gap here, basically

Robin l Right as good for you for recognizing that. 

Francesca l Yeah and so I really set out on this mission to teach myself how to date. So I got onMatch.com because, you know, this was like, this was like, definitely pre app. This was years and years ago, and I just started going on dates. And I just started, you know, realizing, like, okay, you know, first I was being really open, and I was saying yes to a lot of people. Then I was like, okay, now I can start to refine it. So I just, and then it was like, okay, now I know how to go to how to get a first date, but I'm not getting asked on too many second dates. And, you know, just kind of seeing at each stage, sort of like there was a kind of a new little challenge, you know, that was arising. And, you know, recognizing, like, I'm really not good at flirting. I need to learn how to flirt, you know, and not be in the friend zone, because, like, I could talk to anybody have a, you know, a good date, because we'd have a good conversation. But was it romantic? And was it leading to more, it often wasn't. And so then I set out to, you know, teach myself how to flirt. And I really used dating as, like, my lab, you know, to just, you know, really gain these skills that I needed to actually have the relationship that I wanted to have. And so through that process, I learned so much, and I got really good at it. And then I saw so many of my friends and other people that I knew, even though, you know, they might have had lots of relationships, and they were maybe dating, they were really comfortable dating, but they were running into a lot of problems that I had run into. And I. was like, I've learned. I've learned a lot. Let me share this knowledge. So I actually started a dating advice blog back in 2008 when I was still practicing law, because it was just like, okay, like, this will just, this is just, this is something I enjoy talking about. And it wasn't until 2013 the year you and I both went to the Matchmaking Institute, that I discovered Paul Brunson, and I started following him on Twitter, and he tweeted one day that he was going to be speaking at the Matchmaking Institute  Conference. And I was like, there's a Matchmaking Institute? 

Robin l Right 

Francesca l And they have conferences of like, what? And I responded to his tweet, and I was like, I want to come. And he said, You should come. And I did. And I went to the conference, and I met all of these people, Rachel and Lisa, and, you know, all Paul and Amy Van Doren and just all of our match making crew.

Robin l I love her

Francesca l I love her too. I call Amy's my matchmaking. BFF, 

Robin l Awesome. 

Francesca l And I met all these people. And I'm like, these are just regular people whose job it is to help people find romantic love. Like, what could be more, what could be more rewarding? What could be more noble? What could be more exciting than this? And so I, you know, I just dove in. I got my matchmaking certification, and I went on Facebook and I said, hey guys, I'm a matchmaker now, send me your single and everyone in my life was like, I'm sorry. What?

Robin l Yeah, like, what are you talking about? 

Francesca l Yeah exactly. But, you know, I just felt really called to do it. And so I started my own matchmaking business right away. And I also started working for Paul and his agency, and I became his lead matchmaker. 

Robin l Oh, I didn't know that

Francesca l Yeah. So I was so I was working with my own individual clients locally in New York, but I was also working with Paul's clients who were all over, not out just the country, but also internationally. And I remember had a client in India, I had a client in London, you know, all over the place. And because I've had this, like, real diversity of clients, I was able to really see some larger patterns at work. And I was able to see that some of the things that we assume are going to be like, oh, this person will be really easy to match, or this person is going to be difficult to like, I realized that a lot of those assumptions were incorrect. 

Robin l Yes

Francesca l And it wasn't so much about what's your demographic, or, you know, how you know, how dateable are you? It really was deeper than that, and it was, it was clear that the people who we could match were people who were really able to look at themselves and to be very self aware about, okay, what am I, what are my expectations of a relationship? You know am I able to show up as myself? Am I able to receive love? You know because, I mean, I'm sure a pattern you've seen a million times is somebody who really, really wants a relationship, but they're literally never interested in anybody who's interested in them, for instance, right? And, and it's like, okay, that's, that's actually something we need to talk about. And so I realized, you know, we had clients, we would just set them up with, like, and I would be so proud. Like, you know how proud you are when you're like, really fine.

Robin l Like, I've got your match, and then I've got your match, the date's a complete flop. 

Francesca l You ko, you're like, oh my gosh this person is like, they check every box. This is like, everything that they said they wanted. Like, I can't even believe I found this person. I had enough experience as a clients where we had multiple people where we're like, these are amazing matches, but they were still just weren't connecting. The pattern was not breaking, and we were getting the same feedback from their dates over and over and over again. And some people would say, well, that's just them, right? And they just wanted to keep going and just keep meeting more people. And other people would say, okay, wait, maybe there's something I need to look at here. And the ones who were able to do that introspection were the ones who we were able to match, and the ones who were just in this sort of mindset of like, I want, what I want, and they weren't willing to see their own role in actually co creating that we couldn't match them. And it was really frustrating to work with them. And so I just came to see that the coaching piece was that was the most important part, because if you have the right internal mindset, and you know all the things I talked about in the book, you know, the mindset, the heart, set, the soul set, the skill set, then you you can be your own matchmaker at and that then doesn't become a problem. But if you're just getting matches and matches and matches, but you're not doing any of that inner work, it's really a crap shoot

Robin l That I appreciate everything you just said, Francesca, that was what I was coming up against. I would have these clients who would come to me and, you know, here's the money, Robin, find me my person. And I was like, okay, that's, that's all fine to dandy, because, you know, of course, you're gonna pay me for my services. We'd sit down and do like, a two hour interview, you know, you really want to get to know this person really well and answer all the questions, you know, yeah, but you don't really understand how that person ticks until you actually set them up on the dates and see how they're how they are interacting with the people introducing them to. And a lot of times, just like you said, every their list is this long, and you're delivering, you know, a person that actually does fit that list in some criteria, 

Francesca l Yep

Robin l Hopefully you know the most important ones, and then they would show up and not actually be very nice, or way too judgmental or and you're they're not even being like curious and asking questions to get to know this person in front of them. It's just like they've made these snap judgments. So anyways, that kept happening me over and over and over again, and the coaching piece was when I got the most success from and like you said, it's like, if you're working with somebody that's willing to look inside and be in, like, they're just willing to look inside and be like, okay, these are the things. This is the feedback I was given from my dates, yes, and maybe showing up, yeah. Then it's like, actually, I need to take that in and learn from that, right?

Francesca l Yes. 

Robin l So the coaching piece is so, so much more powerful somebody that actually is empowered to do it themselves with your help, your guidance.

Francesca l Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Robin l So your book, Francesca, it is like, you know what,  I love the fact that this is such a resource. It is full of coaching. Like, this is, this is like, this is how to date 101. And you know what, it's not even like. The underlying message throughout the whole book is like, How to Find True Love. Is the title of your book. And really, what is it? Your true you are your greatest true love. Yeah. I mean, that is, I think we've talked a lot like we've talked about this a little bit in 2024 it's gaining a little bit more momentum as a collect like in our collective consciousness. But I don't think people really understand that concept, Francesca,

Francesca l Yeah, yes. 

Robin l And how, if you are not your own first true love, you are going to struggle with what you this is what you teach in the book. You're always going to be struggling to find the external source to bring you love, yes, rather than being the love that you were born to be, you say, we're all born love, geniuses, 

Francesca l Yeah.

Robin l And when you're not giving yourself that worth and that, like all that true love, that that you want from somebody else, it's you're looking for an external source to give that to you, and that's always coming from place of lack.

Francesca l Exactly, yeah, exactly. It's so and I get it. I get that 

Robin l I do too. 

Francesca l I get that like, and I, you know, and I've been there, right? And I get that 

Robin l Me too. 

Francesca l When we say this to people, it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. I just want to meet somebody.

Robin l Like, No, I know. But do you but do people understand it like, and, you know, you do break it down in the book. But tell me, how do you how do you educate, like, just give people, like, just more understanding around that concept and how important it is to really just, like, saturate yourself, and then knowing like, it become no knowing it?

Francesca l Yeah you know, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you know so many angles, Robin, 

Robin l I know I know the angles.

Francesca l You know, to certainly lead people to this breakthrough. But really, just starting with, you know, getting people to really bring more awareness to what is the relationship I have with myself, right? How do I speak to myself? What you know, when I when I meet someone, am I more focused on conforming myself, my behavior, everything, so that they like me? Am I more focused on being chosen, or am I more focused on us actually choosing each other? Am I able to actually be my authentic self, and what, and what are the what are the things that show up that prevent me from doing that right? Like, what is that voice in my head saying, what is that belief that I have about myself? And I think, you know, one of the ways which I can. And, you know, sometimes really get people to see this pretty quickly is, is to really ask them, like, okay, because usually, and I'm sure this is the same case for you, my clients are, you know, they, they have success in life, right. Like, they've, you know, they've achieved goals, you know, professionally and educationally, and, you know, they, they've done amazing things in the world. And so what I kind of contrast, well, what was the beliefs that you you know, what's the belief that you had about yourself when it came to your to your profession, you know, how do you speak to yourself when it comes to, you know, your your goals in this area, in that area? And they're like, Oh, well, yeah. I mean, you know, yeah, I'm more encouraging, I'm less judgmental. And I'm like, You see, okay, right, so you can see, right. And if you can imagine that if somebody was in your position in a career sense, but they're always telling themselves, like, oh my god, like, I suck, or, you know, this is never going to work out for me, or I'm not good enough, or I'm never going to figure this out, you can see how that would hold them back, right? And then they can kind of say, oh yeah, I guess, like, that's, you know, and so they can start to take it a little bit more seriously, as in, like, you know, this self love thing is not just a nice to have, but it's actually an essential to have. And so I think, you know, just really, I mean, the reason that I broke the book down into these four parts of, like, the mindset and the heart set and the soul set and the skill set is because it really does start with the mind. Because you just have to kind of wrap your head around, like, okay, I actually am able to, like, even just logically, see how thinking that, you know, nobody's ever going to love me for who I am, how that actually might be a problem, right?

Robin l Or, like, you know, one, what I what I used to coach my clients on is, is really shedding limiting beliefs, you know, as we and I know myself, I'm 47 years old, and I have less and less beliefs as I get older, thank goodness. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Like, I don't need all these beliefs that are no longer serving me, you know, 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Like, what I used to believe, like, five years ago, I don't believe anymore in lot of things, right. And I think that that comes with with wisdom, with with age, if you are, you know, paying attention to being more conscious, 

Francesca l Yes.

Robin l But I think with dating, like, for instance, you know, you hear these things all, there's just such prevailing beliefs, right, that we hear over and over again. There's no, like, where are all the good men? There's no good men. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Right? 

Francesca l Yes.

Robin l Or, or, for instance, even just like, even just a numbers thing, there's way more women, single women, than single men. Well, that might be true statistically where you live, 

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l That doesn't mean that there's not one that you can absolutely meet and be happy with.

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l In your area, your vicinity

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l So those are just two examples.

Francesca l And those are good examples, because those are really, really predominant narratives, yeah, yeah.

Robin l The one thought I had when I was reading your book is just how I really shifted, how I was showing up from a much more loving self, loving place, when I was dating and looking for my my partner, that now that I hav

Francesca l Yeah.

Robin l And it was really just showing up as like Robin, you know what like you are, like an amazing person. You have so much, you know, good in your life, and so much that you have to offer a partner like this person is going to be so lucky to be with you, 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l You know, yes. And just coming from that place of like, and I think that is like, similar to somebody that going to find a job. I mean, they're highly educated, they've got lots of experience, they're like, I'm going to be a good employee. And they convince that that employer, like you want to hire me. Trust me, I'm going to rocket 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Right. I remember doing that in interviews when I was looking for jobs like, and I was damn straight, I was I was going to bring a lot to the company, because I knew I went 

Francesca l Yes.

Robin l And so I don't think as a population, we actually go to dates with thinking that and believing that about ourselves, like I am, and I'm not talking from a grandiosity, like a grandiose place, from a very sincere place, like I have a lot to offer and I'm and let's just see you know, if this person is at my level, and I don't mean that as like, 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Like, we're a different, not

Francesca l Not in a judgmental way. It's, it's just literally, you know, yeah. I mean, yes, everything that you're saying. And then, because once you have that perspective, then it's like, well, now I'm not focused on, does this person like me? Are they going to choose me? I'm like, whoever gets, whoever gets to be with me, is totally winning. So you can just show up, and you can be yourself, and you can allow yourself to be seen, and then you can also pay attention to how somebody else is showing up. And I think, you know, one of the mindset things that people get so stuck on, and there's so many, but you know, one of them is like this, focus on getting into a relationship, versus thinking about, what is it actually like to like be in this relationship, be in a relationship with this person. Like, what are we actually co creating together? 

Robin l Yes

Francesca l And because, you know, I think, you know, like, the analogy that I use and the book is like, you know, if you're if you like, so you say you have the list, right, the list of all the things that you want. And so you meet somebody who checks all those boxes. Like, okay, that's like the outside of the house. Like, that's what it that's the curb appeal. That's what it looks like from the outside. But you still care what it's like to live inside of that house, right?

Robin l Yes. So you give, you give the example of, I can't remember the client's name, and I'm sure the names of

Francesca l The names have been changed. 

Robin l Jessica, of course. So it doesn't, you know, that's not the point. But you give, you give an example, which I think is just this common thing, okay, you've got your list. He needs to be six, two or the feet are over, okay. He needs to have an university degree or a college degree, um, he has to have wealth be established in his career. Yeah. Okay. That's 3,4,5, okay, the list goes on, right? So, so you find or this person finds that person, they fit all that criteria and guess what? They're terrible to be with. They're not kind to other people that right? They're, they're not spending time with you. You're not a priority in their life. They're working all the time. They're they're not involved with your children. I mean, I mean, you could just talk about just like the person's character, which is so much more important, and their values, 

Francesca l Yep

Robin l And consistency, all the things that are so important to maintain a healthy relationship, compared to all that superficial, external stuff that we that a lot of people think that's what I need to focus on. 

Francesca l Yeah exactly. And I think, you know, there's something that, you know, I always, and I always tell my clients, I'm like, you can have a list of 1000 dream traits that you wanted a partner that's fine. Make that list, knock yourself out, but at least also, first of all, realize you're not going to get all of those things in one person, because that's not a person that's a unicorn

Robin l Right, or AI, right? 

Francesca l Ai, right? That's, that's an AI chat bot that you designed to your liking. But also, like, really make sure that everything that's on that list actually corresponds to the actual relationship that you're going to have with that person. And even something like, you know, like you talked about, like a college degree, very, very common, you know, requirement for the types of clients that we work with, nothing wrong with that. I have nothing against college degrees. I have a college degree. I have a law degree. I'm not, not nothing against it. But why do you want somebody with a college degree? 

Robin l Why is that so important?

Francesca l Literally, just why? And it's not just to try to talk you out of it, but it's just to understand why that's actually important. Because, you know, because when I start asking people just why, they might say, oh, well, because then that's some they they'll be on my level, intellectually, I'm like, okay, so if so is intellectual stimulation with your partner, is that something that's really important to you? They'll be like, yeah, that's something that's really important to me. I'm like, okay, so intellectual stimulation is what you care about. Because there are plenty of people who have advanced degrees who you're not going to find intellectually stimulating, right? 

Robin l Absolutely true, right.

Francesca l Right. So if you just know that I'm only going to be with somebody who is I find intellectually stimulating, because that's one of my core relationship needs. Then I can just meet people and just determine, like, are we able to have that, you know, that intellectual exchange that I care about, and if they happen to have a college degree, great, and if they don't, that's also great, because that's not the point. 

Robin l Yes

Francesca l You know. And so just really getting people to, like, actually, just take a real look at why I want this thing that I want, and some so much of it is is based on just the conditioning and just the ideas that you've been sold of who you should be with and what that should look like. And it's like once you realize, like, No, my relationship is something that I have, I have to live inside of every day, right? And so a degree hangs on the wall. But what is it actually like to be with this person? And how am I leaning into these things that I say that are so important? How am I a match for these things that I say that are so important? If they do actually have to do with our relationship then let me focus on not just the trait that you check on a list, but what's actually underneath it. And focus on that, because that's what's going to bring you to the most harmonious and soul filling and juicy and romantic partnerships when you're focusing on what it actually needs to be with that person versus an idea.

Robin l Right. And so when you are sitting down with somebody and going through, you know, they've given you the list, and then you're like, okay, you know, over time, you're helping them see that that's not we're looking like, if it's very externally focused, we're going to bring it inside, yeah. So for instance, like, I want intellectual stimulation. I want to have, like, deep, meaningful conversations with the person I'm going to share a lot of intimate time with, you know, and my partner, like, we have that we have, like, incredible, meaningful conversations and talk about like, you know, and you like, so it's what you help there's a great list that you have in your book called, it's romantic values, determining romantic values. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l I really, I love it. And, you know, I think there's, like, I don't know, maybe 20 that you list. And of course, it's not exhaustive. And you want to choose like five, I chose like 10. I'm like, I want these 10 out of the 20, okay? And I have those, which is great, but it's like, you want to have joy. I want to have joy with my partner. I want to have, I want to be with somebody that has a growth mindset, yes, is actually like, their lives are dedicated to growing and learning, yes, right? And changing, like, because that's that is like, I know that that's so that's important to me, and I want that to be important to my partner. Yes, right? Agreed. Like, family and friends, like, just our relationships are so very important to us, and if he's not showing that same value or demonstrating the same value in his life, well, that's not gonna work for me. It's not gonna work.

Francesca l You're not gonna be happy in that relationship. It's not gonna be fulfilling, and you'll be settling for so much less than you deserve. And he's actually available to you, you know, which, which goes back to the kind of the scarcity thing, and, you know, you know, the percentages and how many people this, and I always, you know, I give this example in the book, which is like, you know, I'm a black woman, talking about black women and and there's tons of data, black women are the least favorited on apps, the least this, the least that. And so, like a lot of, black women have really embodied that, right? And I just use this as an example, even if you're not a black woman, what is it for you? Maybe it's, you know, I'm a, I'm a single woman in this city, and there's no you know men here, or you know, I'm a gay man in this place, and there's no well, you know, so you can insert yourself and whatever that disempowering story is based on data and statistics. But I remember being single and dating and just being like, I I'm not going to take this on as as, I'm not saying it's not true. Like, maybe those, those numbers are true. But what is the universe that I believe that, that I live in? Do I believe that because I'm because I'm black, I don't get to have the love that I want? Like, why would I believe that? And and there are people who don't want to date me because I'm a black woman. Guess what I don't want to date them either. And so. Let me actually just focus on on what I do want and connecting with the people that I do want, versus, you know, this story about how hard it's going to be for me and and that always worked for me. And I never had any trouble finding people to date me, you know, I never had any trouble. And so I think there is a piece of it, and, you know, and this is why I included the part in the book, really about having this connection to a higher love. And, you know, having faith and you know, and having some connection to like I am able to like these statistics are not my destiny, right? Like, 

Robin l Exactly

Francesca l The possibility of love and the abundance of love is far greater than the fact that you know there's only, you know, there's no single people in my city, like, well, let's just put that aside, right? And, and what's your assignment? Like you, you're not you know what, what's what can you do to become more aligned with the love that you want? What can you do to be more determined and be more open, to be like, okay, well, I don't see a lot of single people in my city, but I have to believe that this desire that I have within me to have love and partnership, it's not just there to torture me, right I do.  do

Robin l I do  believe that our like, our desires, you know, when they're coming from a heart centered place, like finding a partner, it's there for a reason. It's meant to be, and it's just gonna like, I really like the fact that you break it down Francesca, between your department and the universe's department,

Francesca l Yes

Robin l So you know, like you say, a higher or more advanced level relationship is always possible, whether people realize it or not. Accessing it requires a level of intentional intentionality, 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l And personal responsibility. So let's talk about that. Because there's the universe that is, I believe, always on our side and working on our behalf. We our minds trick us, and we create these barriers. So it's like, okay, that's our job. Our personal responsibility is to change our mindset, which is the first part of your book, right? 

Francesca l Yep. 

Robin l And, and open our clear our hearts, you know, forgiveness, all these, these are important things, right, that are holding you back from moving forward, and then the universe also plays. Is behind you, 

Francesca l Yeah.

Robin l So how can you with your intentionality and personal responsibility, what is our department compared to the universe's department?

Francesca l Yeah so number one, and I'm so glad that you that resonates with you.

Robin l Oh, really, I totally did. You're speaking my language. I was so happy.

Francesca l You know, I mean, and the first thing, and this go, you know, going back to like you being your own greatest true love, right. Is okay. I'm very focused on meeting someone else. But first, let me what's my relationship with myself, right. And what is my ability, you know, and I have this self love formula that I talk about in the book, which is, you know, how compassionate am I towards myself versus judgmental and shaming? You know, how much do I actually believe that I am worthy just because I exist, versus how much do I think I have to jump through all these hoops and do all these other things to be worthy of love? You know? How much am I able to give myself credit for, you know, for the things that I do? I mean, I It's astounding to me how many people are constantly doing difficult things and never giving themselves any credit for it. And so it's just becomes this endless hamster wheel of like, not good enough, not good enough. I have to keep doing. I have to keep doing. You know, how what is, what is your self care? Do you actually create time and space in your life to do things that actually nourish you and your spirit and you know? And what is your level of gratitude for the person, the unique one of a kind, miracle that you are? No one else in this world has ever been or will ever be just like you. And that's pretty wild and pretty amazing, right? 

Robin l It is 

Francesca l And we can start to see ourselves that way and like, be like, oh, wow, like that. Wait, I am, I am the I'm the unicorn, right? And have gratitude and appreciation for that if you start to really focus on, you know, and that's why I'm very focused on, you know, really putting these pillars of self love into practice then so then you're like, okay, and you don't have to be perfect. Doesn't mean we never have a, you know, a judge, a self judging thought, or anything like that. Thank God. We never have to be perfect in anything. Okay, love is a perfection. We don't have to be perfect, but the more you can normalize just that more holistically loving relationship within yourself, the less that you're going to have that voice and that doubt telling you you're never going to find anybody. It's going to take a miracle. Who's ever going to want you at, you know, your age or your weight, or the you're this or you're that, or, you know, oh, I'm too much. And so nobody's ever going to want to, you know, who's ever got, you know, like all of these narratives that we tell ourselves, if you can start to really, truly appreciate yourself for who you are. That clears so much noise, and that clears so much static, and then you can start to say, kay, well now what is my next best step? Based on what I where I am right now in my life and on this love journey and where I want to be. You know, I can't snap my fingers and materialize, you know, the perfect person tomorrow. First of all, there's no perfect person, but you know, you know, a really great, you know, ideal partner for me. I don't have control over that timing, but I have control over, you know how I show up in the world, right. So maybe I don't know. Maybe I need to slow down. Maybe I need to go more places outside of my comfort zone. Maybe I need to get more comfortable flirting. Maybe I need to be able to receive compliments from people and not deflect them and shut them down, right? Maybe I need to actually be open to expressing my true self. Maybe I need to get better at dating. I mean, you know, one of the things when you were talking about, I was thinking, when you were talking about how intellectual stimulation is so important to you, and it is to me as well, the number of people who, and I would hear this a lot back in the matchmaking days, especially when I was getting feedback from the dates, you know, who just go on dates and they have these super boring conversation. 

Robin l Right.How are you showing up? Like, are you actually showing up intellectually? Like, that's really important to you. Are you asking interesting, thought provoking questions? 

Francesca l Yeah and, you know? And so people are sitting on, they're they're sitting on, on dates, and they're talking about their jobs, and, like, you know, and then, and then they're like, yeah, there was no, there was no chemistry, there was no it's like, yeah, you sat and talked about your jobs that neither wanted you don't even like your job. Like, what was the point? Like, what was the point of that, right? You know? And so even just being, that's a level of intentionality, of like, okay, I'm going on a date, and I'm not just gonna sit and do idle small talk. And if the conversation is going in direction that I'm like, I have, I have, I have the ability to pivot that conversation, and I have the ability to ask deeper questions and see if that person can meet me there, right? I have the ability to, like, be more, to be more honest about the things that I care about or that I'm into, and not be like, oh my God, they're going to judge me or think I'm weird, because know that the person for you is going to be like, that's awesome that you're into that, even if they aren't, and maybe especially because they aren't, they'll think it's especially awesome, you know. They'd be like, wow, tell me more about that, you know. And so that intentionality is just on so many levels. 

Robin l It really is.

Francesca l Like, what is my intention to like, have that relationship with myself, and especially, I'd say, for people who have a pattern of only really being into people who aren't into them,

Robin l Unaivlable

Francesca l Which is a real development pattern, right? And so it's always this chasing. It's always this seeking approval from somebody who's not totally available, who's not, you know, really into you. That is an inside job. If you change your relationship with yourself, you will no longer be attracted to that dynamic. 

Robin l Yes

Francesca l You just won't. It'll lose its appeal. And then when people show up and they actually can see you and they appreciate you, and they're into you for who you are, then it's like, okay, yeah. Like, why wouldn't they be it feels normal to you. It doesn't feel like this foreign thing, like, Oh my god. Why does this person think I'm so great? It'd be like, yeah, yes, I met somebody awesome who sees how awesome I am, and it would just be a natural outcome. And yeah, so I just think that, the more you know, people can really just ask themselves, Well, okay, What? What? Based on, like I said, based on where I am right now, on this love journey and where I want to be, what might be my next best step? What might be my next best step? 

Robin l Yeah, yeah. You You said yourself, Francesca, that you had a lot of practice dating, and you were taking it as like, like, the grounds for like, built building skills. And you talk about that in the book, and I think there's so much pressure that people are putting on all right, this is gonna like, okay, you know, you're setting your intention to meet the love of your dreams, right. And, okay, this is the this might be, the guy might be, the girl might be the person, right? You go on that date and, like, already that pressure, that's pretty, pretty freaking big, right. 

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l And it's like, I think even shifting that is like, let's lighten this up people like, this is an opportunity for you to meet somebody new. That person but maybe they could introduce you to their cousin, I don't know. Like, have a great, make a new friend. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna meet somebody new today and just take, take it, like, take it as it is. And just like, I think there's just we have to relieve the pressure a bit on dating, 

Francesca l Agreed 

Robin l And look at it more like you talk about your book around your dating is helping you dating Skills will help you build your love skills. 

Francesca l Yes. 

Robin l So it's like, this is skill building. It's not just like hoping, hoping that you know this is the one. I mean maybe, maybe that person will be maybe

Francesca l But maybe something that you learned from that interaction is actually gonna, is gonna take you a step closer 

Robin l Yes

Francesca l To finding the person who is the one

Robin l Yes, because you also say, which I think is just awesome. It's so true. It's like, you could, you could be meeting somebody. Readiness is such an important thing, right. And that's out of your control. You all. Are you ready? You can do a lot of things in your life. To make sure that you are ready and preparing yourself for like a beautiful relationship, but you could be meeting somebody on a date that actually they have all the things. They are just an incredible person. You have great chemistry. They have just you share a lot of romantic values. But guess what, maybe they're not actually ready. So readiness is another piece that I think I was talking to my best friend about this yesterday, Francesca, and I want to share this story, because she was dating this man for, I'm going to say, a few months. I think they went on, I think 5,6,7, maybe more dates. He definitely was like, they had so much chemistry. They had intellectual stimulation. They had great conversation. They both loved to dance. They're both, like, just, you know, full of energy and life and joy, and, you know, like it seemed, from what she was telling me, that they had similar energy, like, you know, in just showing up in life, 

Francesca l Yep. 

Robin l And she said it was just great, beautiful, but they were different places in their lives. That's it, right? 

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l So, so he and she both decided, okay, this isn't, he got a young daughter he had, he has a job that he takes him away from his hometown on a regular basis, and he wasn't able to, he wasn't prioritizing her, 

Francesca l Yeah, 

Robin l In in this whole dynamic of his life, yeah. And she could feel that, and she knew that, right. It's like she wasn't. She was like, I actually want to be with somebody that has time to spend with me on the weekends. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l You know

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l I don't think this is minor, right? 

Francesca l Yeah, these are not

Robin l This is not aligned, right? So they both parted ways. And it's interesting, because she had coffee with one of his friends, and he was like, they're a common friend. And he was like, That man is so great. He's amazing. Like, he's so and she's like, I know, like, I dated him for a couple months, like, I know the quality of this person. And he's like, you know, he just doesn't have his priorities straight yet. He's not in this part of his life where he can really focus on a partnership that's this other man's perspective.

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l And I said, you have to listen to that Kirst like you really do, because as much as he's got all these other things that work for you, the things that don't are, you can't just wait for him to come around or hope he changes. And I think we do that as humans too. 

Francesca l We do that a lot. Yeah, in dating, yeah, especially when you do have so many other ways in which you're compatible, that you're just like, I just wanted to work out with this person. I just want to work to work out. But it's like, you know, that's why I talk in the book about ready able, willing, and really using this framework to understand, like, 

Robin l RAW ready able

Francesca l Willing, yeah, right. So raw, right? And so the number one question is just like, it's not even that you necessarily have to ask this question, though you might, you know, which is just like, well, what beyond you and me? Just, what are you? What are you ready for in your relationship right now? You know, in terms of relationship, because I think we take it so personally, and we have this whole like fairy tale, you know, romantic comedy indoctrination to tell us that, like, if you're just amazing enough, the most unavailable person will suddenly become available and choose you, like, right? And it's just not gonna happen. Like, that's not how it works, right? Like, people, people, they the yes, they do change and they do grow, but they do that on their own time, and they may never change or grow in a way that you're actually wanting them to so you are gambling so much of your heart and your emotion and your energy on something really basic, you know, like the analogy that I always use, it's like, if you were in the market to buy a house, would you just like, go randomly into houses and be like, I don't know if this house is for sale, but I really like it. Like, let me just start measuring for the drapes. And let me start like, even if you don't know yet, if you want to buy the house, you would just be like, I'm sorry before I before I start walk, like, is this house actually for sale? Like, it's, you know, and honestly, just like, asking a question. Just like, where are you in your life right now? Like, in terms of a relationship, what are you looking for? And if somebody is like, I don't know, or maybe did a dot, like, that's not ready. It's not.

Robin l It's it's absolutely not ready. And if somebody, there's two things I wanted to say about this. The first thing is, like, if somebody, like, people are going to tell you or show you, they are going to show you, believe them. Believe them, right? Yeah, believe somebody's actions and believe their words.

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l And they because they're going to show you or tell you, and you just have to believe it, rather than trying to change it or trying to more fit or somehow manipulate it, because that's what we do, right? 

Francesca l Yeah.

Robin l Like

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l You're just hoping, like, I don't know, it just it doesn't work. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l It's working against you.

Francesca l It's working against you, yeah, yeah. And that's when you get to the ABLE piece, which is, like, you know, and that's, that's not a simple question, but that's when you're really showing up. Like, is this person actually demonstrating? Because some people can say, hey, yeah, I'm super ready, I'm ready, I'm ready, I want a relationship. Okay, great. Doesn't mean it's 100% true. They could be lying to themselves or to you, right? But then you get into the able and then it's like, okay, but is this person actually able to show up for me? Right? Are they consistent? Are they able to co create the kind of dynamic that I want in a relationship? And that's something that you have to just be honest with yourself about, and again, not think that like, but if I'm just amazing enough, then they're suddenly gonna, like, change and transform, and now they're gonna be able to communicate. And, you know, like, is there progress, like, does that appear to be happening, or is that a fantasy that you that you're holding on to, right? And then the willing piece, that's the part of like, you know, they like you. They're into you. They're, you know, they're they're putting an effort to move things forward with you. And sometimes people are, they're all willing, and they're no ready, and they're not at all ready, and they're not at all able. And that could be really confusing, right? 

Robin l Yes

Francesca l And so it's like, Well, why is this person pursuing me? Why are they spending all this time with me? They know that I want a relationship, so that must mean that they do as well. No, that doesn't mean that. That just means that they want to get from you, what they want to get from you, right? And so a more empowered approach to dating is to live in reality and to really understand, like, oh, actually, if I want, if I'm looking for a committed, healthy, committed, fulfilling partnership, I'm looking for that true love relationship. Like the all of these things need to be aligned, they need to be ready, they need to be able, and they need to be willing, and I also need to be all of those things. So what is my ability, what's my readiness, and what's my ability to express that? What's my ability to show up as the co creator of the type of relationship that I want to have? Am I sitting back and I'm expecting them to do it all the work, and I'm not doing anything? You know. What's my willingness to actually put in effort and to be more vulnerable and to move things forward? And so it's once you start to take that personal responsibility, and then you're also being really realistic about how the other people are showing up. It becomes so clear 

Robin l It does 

Francesca l And so much of the confusion that people have like, oh, why is this happening? And why did this? And you want their answer, because I can tell you, it's very clear.

Robin l It doesn't, it doesn't make it easy. Francesca, that's the thing, right? 

Francesca l It doesn't, yeah. 

Robin l Walking away from somebody that you know, let's say you have, you've had, like, you know, some excellent experiences with and shared a lot with and have been intimate with, yeah, and it's realizing you're not on the same page, like you say. A lot of people, and many of your clients, will experience a disconnect between what they want and what they are receiving.

Francesca l Yes

Robin l And it's like when you are when you actually acknowledge that disconnect, hopefully you will take that personal responsibility and do something about it. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Because either, either you can work together with this person and you guys can change that dynamic, or you have to walk away. It doesn't make it easy, but it's the right thing. 

Francesca l It's the right thing. And I it's not easy at all. And whenever you know any of my clients do that, I'm like, so proud of them. And I'm like, Please give yourself credit for this, because this, like that is how you put self love into action. It is a highly loving thing to do for yourself, to say, as attracted as I am to this person, as much as there are elements that are so like, juicy and wonderful here, ultimately, I know that this, this relationship, is not what I want, and I'm gonna choose myself, and I'm gonna actually walk away from this person like that is such a powerful, courageous thing to do, and when people do it like I want you to, like, give yourself all the credit. Throw a party, high five yourself, and just know that like you have just moved yourself a step closer to the love that you want by saying no to what you actually don't want. And that is what I really, really want people to embrace and understand about this love journey that we're all on. You know, it is here to teach us how to be more loving towards ourselves and more loving towards other people, how to give love and how to receive love. And if we are not progressing in our ability to give love to ourselves and to others and to receive love from ourselves and others, then we're gonna get stuck and we're gonna struggle. And the more you're able to see like, oh, there's a bigger picture here, and this is a chance for me to grow more loving towards myself, then you actually do become less attached to every individual outcome, because you're able to see that it is part of this larger journey, and it is leading you ultimately to that true love relationship.

Robin l Yeah, so Francesca, could we just spend some time going through the part of your book, which I really so Kirsten and I were just like, going, going through your four dating archetypes, 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l Okay, because, and I was like, okay, Kirst, which are you? And like, we're kind of guessing, right? And then we're, like, talking about other friends. We're like, oh, we think she's listening. Like, it was kind of fun. It was very fun, actually. So, so you broke down how people date, because there are, of course, there's patterns in our behavior, right? So can you go through the four and just a brief explanation, and then, and then, what you know use, there is a mantra on the how you would actually look at things differently, so, so that you're not working against yourself, because this pattern right?

Francesca l Yes, yes. So, um, I'm so glad you love the architect. 

Robin l They're great,

Francesca l Yes, so, you know, it's something that you know, just having, you know, you know, like you I've been doing this now for 12 years, right. And so you see these patterns, and I realized, like, I could talk to somebody for not a long time and really see where they kind of fall, you know, sort of what their pattern is and what their immediate challenge and their assignment is. And that's how the archetypes, it kind of just like naturally arose. Because in my mind, I'd be like, this person's totally an avoider. Be like, oh, this person. And then I was like, wait, there's something here. Yes, totally. So the four archetypes are our avoider, looper, I'm Doing them in the in the right order. Avoider, looper, surfer and sailor, and so if you think about like, so there's this concept that I have that I talked about in the book, which is love confidence. And love confidence is basically how much you believe that you can handle love. You can handle finding it, you can handle keeping it. You can handle navigating the highs and lows of it. Like, how confident are you in that? And you can sort of plot these different archetypes on that scale. And I always like to say to people, like, your archetype is not your destiny, right? It's really more of a phase that you are in right now. And so if you want to be in a different phase, you have the power to do that. You just need to bring some understanding of like, what's kind of keeping you stuck where you don't want to be. So first is the avoider. And the avoider, it's the name says it all right. So the avoider is somebody who really avoids dating. And this is somebody who wants, they want love, they want a relationship, but they do not date. And they may not date at all. They may, you know, every now and again, they might download a dating app and, you know, get really freaked out really quickly and delete it. But they just, they're they're not moving forward in in this love journey, and they're and they're really mostly not dating. Some people when they're really, really struggling in an avoider phase, they don't even talk about dating. You know, I know, like as a matchmaker, you know, one of the things that we used to do was we would get feedback from people in our clients lives, so we would have them identify two to five people who we could actually talk to about, like, oh, you know. 

Robin l I love that

Francesca l So tell me no, that's yeah. And I would have so many people, and this is, like, their best friends, their siblings, you know, I mean, these are people they've chosen right for me to speak to. And these people would say I had no idea she was this interested in a relationship, like,

Robin l Because she doesn't talk 

Francesca l Like, I thought, like, I like, I'm so glad she's working with you, but I had no idea. I just thought that she, like, she didn't care about relationships and dating, and she was focused on this or focused on that. And so I think that's a classic avoider. It's like, you're so avoidant that people who are close to you don't even know that this is something that you actually want, because you have that sort of you're holding that back, right. So the good news about being in that avoider phase is that as soon as you start dating, you're not an avoider anymore,

Robin l Right 

Francesca l Right 

Robin l And consistent, consistently, 

Francesca l Consistently, and you start to say, okay, I'm ready to, like, embark on this journey, just like I did when I was like, wait, okay, I need to learn how to date. I'm ready to embark on this journey of really getting some clarity here and getting some confidence here and developing some skill here. So that's the avoider and and I think, you know, the mantra of the avoider is just like, you know, it's safe for me, right to it's safe for me to actually give and receive love, like I can do this. 

Robin l That's right, right

Francesca l And then you have the looper. And so the looper is when you're in that phase where you're stuck in a dating pattern that just keeps repeating. I've been all of these, by the way, which is also why I can,

Robin l Yeah. The funny thing is, I can. I can see myself in a few of them for sure. Yeah, depends on where you're at in your life, exactly. 

Francesca l Yeah, yeah. So I and you don't have to go through all of them. I always tell people, like, I'm like, This is not it's not necessary that you go through all of these like you can. 

Robin l These are not stages. 

Francesca l You can skip some of these steps, but I happen to have gone through all of them. So that Looper phase is when you're just like, you know, you're dating, you're putting yourself out there, but there's just some issue that just keeps on coming up, and you're just like, ah, you know, like your dating life just feels like Groundhog Day. You're like, how is this keep happening? Why does this keep happening? And so people in the in that Looper phase, it's really important that you start to bring some awareness to like, okay, I'm half the equation here, right? So even if I don't fully understand why this keeps happening, I am the common denominator. So let me slow things down and bring my attention to how I am contributing to this. Am I ignoring my intuition? Am I shutting down? Am I attracted to people who aren't into me? And I feel that I have to chase them right? Like, what are, what are those things that are, what is your department right? That's actually contributing to this, to this larger pattern, which is, you know, an important thing to recognize, and then, and I can't remember offhand what the looper mantra is, but 

Robin l I have it. Okay

Francesca l What is it? What is it? 

Robin l My my romantic history is not my destiny. 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l I have the power to break old patterns and co create lasting love. 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l Right.  

Francesca l Yes, yeah, exactly. 

Robin l Don't have to. You have the power

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l And you can get out of this loop of, you know, you think is repeating the same lesson. Over meeting the same person, just different clothes

Francesca l Yes

Robin l Over and over again

Francesca l Yes.

Robin l You know by, by changing how you're showing up, by changing your belief systems, by right, and choosing like, like, another part of the book, which is not, this is not part, but it is so good, it's about helping people avoid bad dates, yes, like

Francesca l Yes

Robin l This is a skill.

Francesca l It is a skill yeah.

Robin l And it's like, what like, if that person is, like, showing up, you know, on messenger or just in your telephone conversation before you even meet them for the first time, as just, like, totally avoiding you or not giving you the time of day, and you're having to, like, you know, you give an example of that person who she was doing everything in her power to make this date happen with this guy, 

Francesca l Yeah 

Robin l And he was just kind of giving her bread crumbs, yeah? Like, you could see it, right? 

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l And he's like, okay, well, I can't go for dinner with you on Saturday. I'm not, but I am available at like, four o'clock before, before I go for dinner with my friends and family.  

Francesca l Literally

Robin l And she's like, and she's like, oh my, okay, well, I get off at 3:30 for work, so okay, I'm gonna drive across town. Okay, I'll meet him at four o'clock, and then she shows up at four o'clock, and he arrives 25 minutes late. Okay, give me a break, buddy. Right. In the meantime, she's all sweaty in the bathroom, and she's like, oh, but you could think putting her try to put herself together after working all day, like she's bending over backwards to accommodate this guy. 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Because she's like, thinking, right. They sit down, and he's like, not even giving her any sort of interest, 

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l Right

Francesca l Yeah. 

Robin l And then he's like, Vimno me?

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l What the hell 

Francesca l I gotta go bye 

Robin l Everything in his actions are showing you that he is totally not interested. And then you're not a priority, and it's just like, so you give skills in the book around avoiding bad dates. I really love that. That's it. That's awesome. So put that in there, because there's a whole section about that. So I just like, that's awesome too. 

Francesca l Thank you. Yeah, so important. Whenever people tell me, oh my God, terrible thing happened, you'll never believe it. I'm like, I will

Robin l But you can avoid and I'm like, I want scenarios?

Francesca l But it's always 

Robin l Right. 

Francesca l There was always signs, there's always signs, there's always some sign that you overlooked, you know, either willfully or not, but 

Robin l So that's an example in the looper that might not be like, you're not, you're not catching the signs, yeah, you're not paying attention to the signs, or you're dismissing the signs.

Francesca l Yes, exactly. 

Robin l So maybe yes. okay.

Francesca l Yeah. So let's look at reality, right.

Robin l Yeah.

Francesca l And this goes back to the self love, right? You so you'd be compassionate towards yourself, as you're saying, Okay, wait a second. Maybe I'm not looking to sign at the signs, but I but I could. I want to do better, and I'm actually willing to do that, right. So here is a powerful  place to be. Okay. So then next is the surfer, and the surfer is is someone who is just driven by chemistry, and surfers have a great ability to meet people and it's sexy and it's fiery, and there's that instant attraction and it's romance, and they just dive in. They're like, this is the wave, this is my wave. And they just go for it,

Robin l Totally Yes. They're like, they're surfing the wave.

Francesca l They're surfing the wave. And look, you can get lucky, right. Because sometimes when you have that instant, intense chemistry, it is the sign of something lasting, but oftentimes it's not. It's a very unreliable indicator of long term compatibility. And so surfers tend to overvalue that instant chemistry, and they think that if they have it, that means this is, this is the person for them. And you know, my advice to surfers is always to first of all be honest about what your pattern is. Because if every time you meet somebody that you're intensely attracted to, you decided this is the one for me, it's like, well, what about all the other ones, right. And so maybe there's actually something more going on here. And just because your chemistry radar is leading you into a certain dynamic does not mean that's actually the dynamic that you want to have. So this is also about, like, breaking patterns and just slowing things down, right? And so, 

Robin l Right

Francesca l You can be excited, you can be attracted. You do not have to over commit. You do not have to instantly decide, I'm gonna go all in and just give like, you can just slow it down. Because if they're your person, they're gonna be your person three months from now, they're gonna be your person. 

Robin l They're gonna they're gonna be your person

Francesca l A year from now they're gonna be, you know. So like, what is the rush? So just really slowing things down, not overvaluing that instant chemistry, and especially if that instant chemistry in the past has consistently taken you down a road that you don't want to go into, go down again. That's what a sign to like. This is not a green light for some people, it actually might be a red light, right. And so that attraction and that chemistry will change when you start to change, and you start to recognize what the pattern is about, and start to bring some awareness. And this doesn't mean you have to spend years in therapy. Literally, it could be as simple as like, oh, I see that. I always, if somebody is like, not that into me. I see that well, this is not really so much the case in the in the surfer, but maybe, like a surfer example, this would be, I know that every time I meet somebody, we have this intense chemistry. It flames out after a couple of months, right. And so if you're like, All right, so there's some part of me that is actually drawn to people who want that falling in love energy, but they don't have the, actually, the skills and the commitment and the readiness to build relationships over time. So how can I start to recognize that, and how can I start to be more discerning in who I'm actually just jumping into a relationship with? So that's what I want my surfers to do. So do you have the surfer mantra? 

Robin l Yes. So yeah, I do have the surfer mantra, it is safe for me to give and receive with a compatible partner. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, doesn't all. And so when I was I was telling you earlier about my best friend, and so she's like, I'm such a surfer. And I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I get it right, because I could see that in her.

Francesca l Yeah.

Robin l And, and just going back to that example of this man that she broke it off with 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l And it was proud of you, Kirsten

Francesca l Good job. 

Robin l Yes. I know way to go. Way to go, girlfriend. And you know what? She she was taking her time and getting to know him. And it was, it was at that period where they just came to this precipice where it's just like understanding that he's not going to be there for me in the way i i need a partner to be, and I want a partner to be, and he, he was, he was in agreement. Like, I'm just not in a place where I can give you what you need, right. So there you go. 

Francesca l Yeah.

Robin l So that's not, none of this is bad, because I just think she learned so much more about, like, this is what I actually she's getting closer and closer, and honing in on like, this is so important to me, and in my next partner, I'm going to look for that. I'm going to make sure that that actually that is a match. 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l So what, so that's all good, and they 

Francesca l So good

Robin l Great experiences together, and they could be friends. You know I just think that all of this is for the good.

Francesca l I agree. It's all for good, and even especially if you have it's been a while since you did have that connection with somebody. It's like to be reminded, to be like, oh, right like, I can have excitement and romance and fun and great conversations. 

Robin l Yes 

Francesca l That's activating, and that's good, you know, and it does get you closer. It's like, okay, that's not the only person in the world you can have that energy with. So 

Robin l Definitely not. 

Francesca l Now get excited about having that energy with somebody who's also on the same page as you,

Robin l Yeah 

Francesca l Then it's gonna be even more amazing. 

Robin l Like, totally. It's just all, it's just so, so good, yeah. So

Francesca l So last but not least, is a sailor. And so the sailor is somebody who is one of these people who I used to look at and be like, how do they do that? Which is basically just someone who is very, their ability to get into committed relationships is just very, it's very natural for them. They are attracted to relationship minded people. They're, you know, we might call them serial monogamous. You know.

Robin l I think I'm a sailor. I think I was a sailor. 

Francesca l I'm definitely a sailor now, but, you know, I wasn't always right, because I've been through all these phases, right. And so sailors are very empowering them in that way of just knowing, like, yeah, I can absolutely handle a relationship. I am a relationship person. They see themselves that way. They're only attracted to and attract people who also see themselves that way. So getting into relationships is something that's very easy and very natural for them. Now, having said that, I've worked with a lot of sailors who are like, I've been in relationships, you know, non stop for the last 30 years, but they haven't necessarily been the right relationships. Like now I realize 

Robin l Right

Francesca l Other things that I want. So, you know. So it's not to say that they've always chosen the exact, most compatible partners for them, but just that baseline of ability to just know, like, I can handle a relationship they have. They have that very strongly.

Robin l But I think what you're what you said there hit the nail on the head where you could be, you could be that person that's like, okay, I can meet people and I can get into a relationship. But are they Is that a healthy relationship? Is that a is that a good, solid relationship that you want to be in?

Francesca l Yeah

Robin l You know. And is there give and take? Is there reciprocity? Is all of those things, right? 

Francesca l Yes. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Robin l So the mantra for the sailor is, I can effortlessly attract the relationship of my dreams. 

Francesca l Yes right? Yes, not just a relationship, but the right relationship. Yes.

Robin l The right relationship. Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, Francesca, like I just really loved our time to get today, together today, and loved reading your book and learning from you. And I really, I've already talked to my friends about your book, and my friends that are single, looking for love, and they are very intentional about it, and they're very self aware, and they're doing all the things to you know they're not. These are friends of mine, my best friends that have been married before, they want their next partnership to be all the things, 

Francesca l Yes

Robin l You know. And so I'm so proud of them for being so persistent and just sticking with it, even though it's just like, freaking hard. You know?

Francesca l I know dating is so hard 

Robin l Dating can be very, it just being realistic about that too. It's very, it's it can be very hard to date.

Francesca l It can be really hard

Robin l Keep picking up your bootstraps, like, that didn't work, yeah? Gosh darn it. You know, like two months later and you're breaking up with someone and your like fuck like not again you know.

Francesca l Well, I'm really hoping that this book will help people to make it easier and to 

Robin l That's exactly 

Francesca l Just avoid so many of the those pitfalls that are so common, that feel. Inevitable. But actually it's like, wait, no, no, it's they're not. You don't actually have to keep doing that like you don't that. You can break that pattern. You can actually enjoy dating. You can use it to, you know, again, develop this better relationship with yourself, to develop these love skills that you need to be more intentional, to be more self aware, to be more realistic, you know, to to not be passive. Because I think it just, we're just taught that love is something that's like, you just have to get lucky, and, 

Robin l And no

Francesca l You can make your own luck and love and

Robin l Yeah

Francesca l You just have to know how to do it. And I know that's the part that's really hard, and that's why we've been doing this for 13 years.

Robin l Yes but this, but, and that's, and that's what you've put in your book. Is so much wisdom, and there's a lot of guidance that you can follow, and like you said, to help avoid the pitfalls, but also just leave you like I think, just in a more direct path to finding your person. So kudos to you, Francesca, and I pray that your book finds into the hands and ears and hearts of all the people that will benefit from it. I really do.

Francesca l Thank you so much, Robin. I so appreciate you and your support and your kind words. And this conversation has been awesome. So thank you. 

Robin l It has been I close with a blessing with your sentiments from your book, what you wrote. So

Francesca l Oh, yay.

Robin l May we remember you have an inner power to choose love again and again, your heart will grow braver and more skilled at love as you go. Isn't that the truth! May we remember that fear can only be transcended through the power of love, which includes knowing yourself and may we  cooperate with the universe and do our part to find true love through the power of intention, gratitude, surrender and serendipity, the universe will do the rest to bring you together with the right people, and I think that's true for in all aspects of our lives. So 

Francesca l Yeah, yeah,

Robin l Just your book is also so soulful. We didn't, we talked. We did talk about that, but I think it's just this higher love that we can all have and where we we are from. Yes, it's attainable for all of us. So thank you. Francesca, Hogi

Francesca l Thank you, Robin.