Erin & Stephen Mitchell - Parenting Through Conflict

In this episode of Let’s Talk Love, Robin sits down with Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP, authors of Too Tired to Fight: 13 Essential Conflicts Parents Must Have to Keep Their Relationship Strong. Together, they share an honest and insightful conversation about the challenges of parenting while maintaining a strong partnership. The Mitchells explore how conflict, while inevitable in raising children, can become a powerful opportunity for connection. Drawing from their book, they provide practical tools and intentional communication strategies to help couples navigate stress, deepen understanding, and strengthen their bond amidst the complexities of parenting. This episode is packed with wisdom for anyone looking to parent—and partner—with greater teamwork and compassion.

Takeaways:

• Parenting inevitably brings conflict and disagreements.
• Attachment dynamics shift when children are introduced.
• Conflict can be an opportunity for connection.
• Intentional communication skills can be learned.
• Understanding your partner's story is crucial in conflict resolution.
• It's important to recognize and express your emotions.
• Suspending defensiveness allows for better communication.
• Navigating parenting challenges requires teamwork and understanding.
• Creating space for intentional conversations is essential.  
• Cyclical arguments often stem from unresolved emotional issues.
• Postpartum changes can significantly affect physical touch dynamics in relationships.
• Developing skills for connection is crucial for thriving in parenting. 

We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Links:

Book - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059371427X

Website - https://couplescounselingforparents.com/too-tired-to-fight/

Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/couples-counseling-for-parents/id1598800142?i=1000672124088

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Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today, we are going to be talking to our guests, Stephen and Erin Mitchell, about love, about parenting, and the challenges around how hard it can be to stay really connected while you are parenting. Thank you for joining us. Erin and Stephen. 

Erin Mitchell | Thank you so much for having us. 

Stephen Mitchell | Yes. Thanks a lot for having us. 

Erin Mitchell | Excited to be here. 

Robin Ducharme | I've been spending the week reading your book, Too Tired To Fight, and remembering a lot of what I went through with my partners at the time, co parenting and a lot resonated. I really enjoyed your book, and I thought it was full of wisdom and ways to navigate what you call essential conflicts. 

Erin Mitchell | Yes. Thank you.

Stephen Mitchell | Thank you so much for reading it.

Robin | I read all the books. But like, you know, some are like, how much, how much am I really taking away from this and your book like, for for people that are parenting, I think this is an excellent, excellent book. We talk about co parenting when people get divorced, because that's another thing all in itself. But I think it's like, inevitable. Okay, you're going to have conflict and disagreements with the person that you are parenting your children with it's just, it's inevitable. 

Stephen | Yeah, that's right. Yes, it's very human, is the way I like to think of it. Like, you can't have perfect communication, and you're going to think differently about parenting styles and how you want to do certain things. And yeah.

Erin | And it's about your kids. I think there's very few things in life any of us care more about and want to be intentional with than our children. So the stakes are really high and it matters.

Robin | Of course, it does. So tell us about your background and why you wrote your book. 

Stephen | Yeah, so, we are a married couple, and we have three kids of our own, 13, soon to be 11 and 7. And I have a PhD in Medical Family Therapy. Erin has a Master's in Counseling Psychology, and we thought that we were going to be phenomenal when it came to parenting.

Robin | Yes, because you're both in therapists you've both been through the schooling.

Stephen | Yeah I mean, we, like, it was just gonna be pretty easy, and then we had kids, and we, we didn't do so well.

Erin | Yeah, it was a struggle. I think, like, and I think that's what we really want to normalize. It's going to be a struggle. New things are stirred, things that had been resolved or opened right back up again. And so while we were struggling, we were like, and, you know, we were still able to talk about it, but like, if we're struggling, this must be really hard. Like, we...

Stephen | Because we shouldn't, I mean, on paper, we should, we shouldn't be struggling.

Erin | We'd prepared for this. We'd done a lot of work around this, and it was really tough and out of that, I think, was born mostly first our company, like, couples need help with this, and we were really not able to find the specific help we were looking for with, like the examples that apply to us. Because, of course, we know that we should be communicating more well, I'm tired, so how? What now, what? 

Robin | We're completely exhausted. That's the name of your book Too Tired To Fight. It's just, I can't even deal. I'm going to bed. I don't even, like, right?

Erin | Yes. Have more intentional time for yourself. Fantastic. When exactly do you prescribe that? So it became very obvious, like, oh, we could do this. And we had always wanted to work together, and we'd always been dreaming, but, you know, life happened and but it did create our company. 

Stephen | Yeah, so we created a company, Couples Counseling for Parents. And I think our thought as well was we wanted to provide, like, research and forum psychologically sound education for parents, because a lot of times, like, when couples, like, they would come to us, or whatever, they'd be like, oh, you know, we don't need, like, deep psychotherapy. So I'm a licensed therapist. Erin has worked as a therapist before as well.

Erin | What he's not saying is, I am not currently licensed.

Stephen | Yeah, not currently licensed, right. But like, like, they would come and be like, well, we don't need like, we don't need therapy. I mean, we're, I mean, we're not messed up, right?

And so we really wanted to bridge that gap between like, you can these are skills that you can learn. This is communication. This is being more connected. This is learning how to cope with a really huge transition in your the developmental stage of your relationship, that is parenting. And we really liked that idea as well, of just, you know, this isn't you have to be scared of this. You don't have to be think that you've got some huge, massive problem this. This is just parents learning with people who are other parents and and, you know, we're using our educations and those things as well, but learning how to go through this process together, trying to really humanize it, make it normal, but also provide really solid relational content as well. So I know we, we were like, Let's do it, yeah.

Robin | And I think you, I think you nailed it, Stephen, when you have, like, normalizing how incredibly hard it is to parent, like, number one, parenting is very challenging. Like, I've got, I've got three different ages, and it's just like, even during the stages, like, you know, they say, like, a baby's easier than a teenager. I mean, come on, I don't think so. But there's like, I mean, maybe your time is less, like, you know, draining, but there's just challenges along the whole continuum And when you do have a baby, let's just say it's like understanding and just normalizing the fact that your life is going to be turned upside down and and, of course, your coupledom is completely changed. And I, like you said, it's like, you're both trained, you know therapists and you know the school, and you're thinking, we're good, we're solid. That's not going to happen to us. We've got this but, but you don't actually expect like that actually it's, it's just, it's human nature, that everything's going to freaking flip upside down when you bring a human home, another human into your life.

Erin | That's exactly right. And so yes, we want to normalize that. I think the other thing I love that you said that each stage is different, because we hear all the time that couples come to us and say, like, we just thought we had to get through, you know, like, Babydom, like, if we could just get through that, then we'll be fine. But these things come with us, and they just transform. So maybe we're talking about diapers initially, but like diapers is just the vehicle and that will easily become preschools, which will easily become stress response to our middle schooler, easily become adolescents.

Stephen | And what do we do about screen time and phones? 

Erin | I mean, it just, it changes right along with us, unless we really get to the roots of these problems. 

Robin | Yeah. So there was, like, I had, I had quite a few aha moments when I was reading your book, which is so great. Like, first of all, I like your definition of stress, because you talk about, like, parenting is stressful, and it's naturally going to bring up stress. I think in our society, we view stress like in the wrong way, right? You're actually just saying like your definition of stress, stress simply is the heightened energy that comes with going from something that is routine, expected and practiced to something new. And I was like, yeah, like, it's just like, it does it kind of takes the negativity out of it. And being like, Okay, the reason I'm feeling this heightened sense of everything physical, like physically in my nervous system and my mind is like, ruminating or whatever you're going through. It's like, this is normal. Like, stress is normal. So, so that's like, that's what do you want to say about that before we get into the other my next, aha. [laughs]

Stephen | Well, I think, I think again, it is, it is to shift our mindset and our perspective because it is simply, I think, a normative, as you were saying, a normative, like nervous system response when we're used to something being one way, and then it changes. And stress can be as simple as getting to work. I was at home, asleep, calm and fine, and all of a sudden I got to get up and get going. Oh, okay, yeah. Like, we're going to have a response to that heightened energy. It can be as simple as that, and it can also be as profound as, oh, my goodness, I'm a father now. Oh, I didn't have the best example of what it meant to be a father, and I've got to do something I don't really think I know how to do. And and then that kind of stress is like that sort of deep internal kind of stress that hangs around and can kind of impact your confidence and impact how you interact with your partner, and then interact how you interact with your kid and like you need to understand that as well, and that's not positive or negative. That's just what's happening for you. So I think that it's really helps you shift your mindset and in terms of how you think about, quote, unquote, the problem of stress.

Erin | I think, I love that. I also love that the profound place that that can invite us to, because I think so often, especially as we transition into parenthood, we just move through these stresses without really letting them register one again. And I mean no shame, we don't always have time like truly, we do have to continue moving through, but we at some point need to start flagging like something seems important, it's just something to notice and pay attention to, and that's the practice we really want to help first an individual start recognizing, because that is the beginning of healthy communication, and that is the beginning of real, authentic connection.

Robin | Right, so you talk about attachment, okay, so we like on. Let's Talk Love and in Real Love Ready with so many of our experts, we talk about attachment, right? And are you anxious attachment? Are you avoiding? Are you one of the two? Right? But that's not where you're going with this. And I think the way that you talk about attachment in your book is so awesome because you're saying, which makes sense to me, like you're a couple, like you talked about, you're you guys were good, you're strong, and then you have babies, and you're just like, What the heck? Right, we're going through it. But, you know, it's, it's your attachment as a couple is almost displaced when, or it can be, of course, it becomes displaced when you've got children, because now it's like, you've got this little one, it's completely 100% dependent on you for their attachment needs. And it's only natural that you as their parent, are going to attach to them, and somehow, almost like you're not doing it on purpose, but you're detaching from your partner. It's like this, this attachment need, or is, is way more in your life, in your life, then your partner that you're good, like you're an adult here, right? I've taken care of this thing, but however. So I think that, to me, was like such a big learning because it makes perfect sense that your partner, like, if you don't have that strong attachment, and if you're not focusing on your your attachment with your partner, it's going to come at a cost, right, in your relationship. So that, to me, was like, Holy crap, like you, you naturally have an attachment need with your partner, and then your behaviors, some that are demonstrating that loss of attachment, that feeling, those feelings.

Stephen | Yeah and I think it also awakens attachment, our attachment histories, our attachment hopes, our attachment fears. Because, you know, like we talked about in the book, like a lot of times, from an attachment standpoint, parents want to either recreate or correct their attachment experience. So you when they have kids, so like, Oh, I've got these beautiful, lovely, wonderful human beings in my life now, and I want to give them an attachment experience exactly like what I had, or completely different than what I had. And then different partners might have different viewpoints on what that looks like, because one partner might might be like, Well, I didn't really love the attachment experience you had as a kid and how it impacted you. I don't think we should be recreating that, sure, or, oh, you know what? There's so much pressure to recreate exactly what you had like, how to like, we can't do that. And so attachment just becomes so prevalent in terms of, yes, you're attaching to these little kids, it does impact your attachment with your partner in a big way, but then also it stirs up your own kind of attachment, needs and feelings as it comes to like parenting and how you want to express those things. Then throw in a little conflict in there, and those can feel like further broken attachment between partners.

Erin | I think all I was going to say is, but everything you just said was so linear, but in real time, that's like all in a blender, and it's all happening, yeah, all the time. And of course, I want you to attach to our kids. Of course, I don't want that to cost me. Of course, I see that it should cost me. Of course, it shouldn't cost me, you know, like, all the time, and it's complicated. It's really hard to disentangle all that stuff, especially in real time. That's, yeah, well, it's not hard. That's impossible.

Stephen | Yeah, actually, I mean, what we found, most couples struggle to do that in real time, and we hear couples coming to us, you know, maybe a year to three years after they're having their first kid, and they're like, we, we kind of feel like we're just now catching up with ourselves, and we're just catching up with what happened to us. And there's like, oh man, like we didn't, we didn't know our relationship was here, but it is here, and we don't know how to, like, reclaim it in a sense, right?

Robin | So you have, and so I listened to the audiobook, and we also have the copy to read. And I liked the audio book, because you have different people reading, like, being the characters, right? And so that was a really nice way to listen to your book. So for those that do Audible or whatever, I thought that was really spot on for just getting there with the with the people. So you've got, you do have skills, right? So talk to us about your formula that you created. And I think. You know what you're what you're saying before Stephen is just around like it is about when you don't have time, but you do have to create the space like and when you can take a step back and be more intentional with this in the conflict. One of the things that I before we go through your formula, one of the things that I think I was just reminded over and over again, Terry Real talks about this too. It's not you against me. It's us, right? Our conflict, what we are dealing with, and our relationship. It's an us problem. And I think with parenting, it's so Oh, it's so easy and often that we like, It's me against you, and I want you to, like, bend to what I'm like when I where I'm coming from, and or vice versa, right? Rather than, like, how can we meet in the middle, or find something where we're both going to feel it's a win, win. So that's where I think your solutions to conflict, really, you've got some really good ones on how to meet in the middle, yeah.

Stephen | Yeah. Well, thank you. So, I mean, I think our big, you know, kind of thing is conflict is really an opportunity to connect. And so we we have this conflict to connection equation. Oftentimes, people think, you know, conflict means there's something wrong, and that creates a disconnection. And well absolutely it can. But if we have the skills to engage in conflict, conflict can lead to connection, and we can get through as as partners, in terms of having difficult conversations, and be like, actually, wow, that was tough, but like, it's me and it's, it's us, we're together, wow, like we just navigated that really tough conversation, whatever it might be.

Erin | I think, I think the thing is, is that, because even even the word conflict, we're all talking about it like, we all assume it's something bad, all of us. We've done a lot of promotion, right? Like, we've talked about this a bunch. It's, it's nearly universal, but it really is just supposed to mean something's important.

Robin | The reason, the reason I want to talk to you about this, the reason I'm feeling this way is because, like, I'm not feeling connected, right? I'm not feeling heard. These are very important human needs, and we need to, we need to sort through it, so that we can stay connected.

Erin | Exactly, if we can even just start to identify, like, Ooh, Oh, I'm just wanting Steven to know something about me. Well, one like, if I say it like that, of course I want to share that with him, because I know Steven wants to know something about me, but what? And that's the difficult thing, because this is happening in real time. And like we said, it's a, you know, a blender of emotions and experiences, and it's fast, and it's hard to say, Stephen, there's something really personal about me I'd like for you to identify in this moment, and I'm very aware of what it is, and I know that you have the space and capacity in this moment to hear me. That's hard, and it is a big ask, I will be very clear, well maybe not a big ask. It is an ask up front.

Stephen | Right, and so I think, like so the conflict to connection equation. There's, there are two parts to it, in terms of, there's intentional expressing, and there's intentional listening. There's always someone talking and someone listening in a conversation. And to your point, Erin, a lot of times we, you know, people will read through the dialog and the scripts that we have in the chapters, and they're like, nobody talks to each other this way, like, there's no couple who talks this way. And oftentimes my response is, like, you're exactly right, but it is a skill that can be learned. And that's, that's the thing, like, there is a skill to doing this, and it does take work upfront, but once you become practiced in it, it just becomes the way that you and your partner talk and and it can really shift the dynamic and communication between you and your partner very quickly. And they're not skills that, like, take forever to learn. I think they can be learned pretty quickly. But we do say, like, these are skills to learn, intentional expressing, intentional, listening and, and then we kind of break it down, like a lot of times we talk about it in terms of it is, it's like a neuro narrative kind of approach, the neuro part being, you have to engage your nervous system, and you have to tell a story. Think about it like, everybody likes a good story, right? Like I like to, I like to listen to a story. And if we look at conflict is I'm trying to tell my partner the story of my experience it changes it rather than I'm trying to criticize them, I'm trying to blame them. I'm trying to tell them how they're letting me down. No, I'm trying to tell you the story of my experience. I want you to listen to it, and I want you to tell me the story of yours, and so that that's kind of the like, the overall framework.

Robin | It makes it overall, quite simple. Like, it's not easy to do. That doesn't right, but it's like, this is how I. This is the story that I'm I'm telling myself, right now. And this is how I'm feeling. This is my experience.

Erin | Yeah, yeah. And the reason that it's a little bit complicated is because we have to know those places, because those places, whatever story we're telling ourselves, didn't start today. That's a deeply rooted story. It means something to me. It has it has history, it. I It was true, like, you know, whatever that thing is, you know, like an example would be, I don't know Stephen running when we had our oldest one of these things to when we get home from work. I was staying at home at the time, and I'm, you know, for the sake of story, I'm gonna, you know, make it seem like this happened all the time. But Steve, when we get home from work, he'd like, make sure everything was, like, set up, or like, you know, reset or whatever. And be like, I'm gonna take a quick run. It looks like, you know, our kid's name is Leeds. Leeds is asleep or whatever. And I would watch him walk to go those shoes, and my spine would straighten, you know, the hairs like raising.

Robin | I can see it, Erin, because I'm going, like, I guess the visual it's like, you've been going all day, bud. I've been here ans now you're going to go for a run? I don't think so.

Erin | But, and all I could think to say was, what I just said, Oh, Stephen, do you need a little time for yourself? And so then he's like, Wait, you don't want me to run, you know? I'm a better person. I'll come home, I'll be engaged, like, I'll be like, less stressed, like, Oh, you don't, Oh, you don't want me to take care of myself. And I'm like, You're right, Steven, because I don't like you, you know? And it just, words spiral. 

Stephen | Or like, you totally don't appreciate I've been at work all day, and it's not like,

Robin | Right. So, so let's, can we walk through that example? Expressing and listening please.

Stephen | Yeah, yeah. So, so kind of, that's the setup, and that the idea is from the intentional expressing standpoint. So Erin, who looks at me grabbing the shoes, she has something she wants to say, but she first has to engage with something's happening, right? Because her comment of, like, oh, you need a little me time, like, that is not an invitation to conversation. So, So Erin, kind of like, what, what would happen first, she would just, first of all, just assess and recognize, oh, like something is happening. And usually she might feel that in her body, right? She she might get hot. She might, you know, like a shaking spine. 

Erin | My hair, I'm like, Oh, my, okay, I do this. I don't know, people can't see, but like, I straighten my fingers, and that's truly my response.

Stephen | So nervous system is engaged, right? That's that man. So she's, like, she is, she assesses that, then she's got to tune to, like, what is the emotional content behind there? She said, I'm pretty angry. Like, like, I feel, I feel pretty upset, okay, but then there, as she was saying, there's always a story to the emotion. There's always a history to our emotion. And so yes, she's angry, but she's angry about a story that she feels is happening, which is.

Erin | Okay. So how this would come out, and probably how it did come out, these are probably not on purpose, but direct quotes, but I but I think that people think they're being very clear communicators when we say things like, that's so selfish, you're being so selfish. Like, how, how could you be so selfish? Or that's so entitled. Because, if I'm being honest, I think those things are true. I think that is a selfish action, and I think it is entitled, and I and so that's what I think to say. And I'm, like, literally communicating, okay, so far, I've said nothing about myself. So for me to walk away and feel like Stephen really understands me, I wouldn't.

Stephen | Cause I'd be like, Well, I'm not selfish. I'm not entitled, like, holistically, right? Like, like, that doesn't that doesn't connect. But Erin's anger is telling a story. 

Erin | So the next thing is, like, okay, so selfish and entitled. Do I know anyone in my life where I felt like they were selfish and entitled and taking advantage of me? Oh, boy, yeah, I can find the thread there. I definitely have that experience. I, you know, I could list a lot of stories, like, right now, real time, and thankfully, Stephen and I had already done a lot of that work. A lot of times couples haven't it and that's okay, like, it's, it's never too late to start this, but to say, like, Hey, I actually have an idea of what's happening. I'm I'm feeling taken advantage of. I'm feeling like, and it's, and it's reminding me, and it's really helpful to take this back to and for me, it would be my dad. My dad would like, you know, I'd have plans with my friends for the weekend, or, like, there was a time where I was in a talent show and he was like, That's inconvenient for me. You can't go. But he didn't tell me until that day, like, I'm letting my friends down, like, and I, you know, this, whatever, all these things, but like, for me to be like, this is the feeling like you're not even considering my needs. You're just jumping to yours.

Stephen | And so that's reflecting on what the emotion, how it's connected to the story. And then what Erin is talking about is sharing that story. And if you notice, like. Yeah, there's not a a sense of blame or criticism. There's a this moment is tapping into an experience that I've had, and this is what's happening for me. 

Robin | Yes, I'm feeling like when I hear Erin speak like that, I'm feeling like compassion, for you and like that that really sucks. Like, that is so shitty that you know, and I can, you know, and you just want to go there with you.

Erin | Like, totally, right? And, and that's the almost always the natural response from a partner, like, whoa. Like, this is that?

Stephen | And so I think that, again, if you know that's intentional, express, do you hear the level of intention that Erin would have to have to be able to express this to me. Yes, that's a skill that you, you can learn, but it does take, it does take effort to have difficult, difficult conversations or engage in conflict takes some work. So, yeah.

Robin | So, what about what about this? Because I'm thinking like, what if somebody doesn't have a story that they can like in that they can like, in that moment, like, you're, you seeing this guy, he's putting, this guy [laughs], Stephen, he's putting his shoes on, he's gonna, oh, he's walking out the door. And you're like no way, right? That's how I'm feeling in my body. Like, okay, like I'm feeling taken advantage of right now, yeah, what if? What if this story was more like present. I'm feeling like I've been I've been at home all day. I'm very tired and and then you're asked, you putting the ask out, but you're but that's not the step, right? Are we going into intentional listening first? Like, how do we walk through this? 

Erin | That's the reality, because Robin, everything you're saying is real, because I'm not actually in this, in this in this moment where Stephen has grabbed his tennis shoes, I'm not actually mad at my dad. I'm actually frustrated and hurt by Stephen. It's just a rooted place. And I think that that's the reason it's important and more helpful to know that is because that's the place I'm looking to be. Like, we don't have that so, right? Like, so you're not going to ask me to put my needs aside, right? Like, you see how doing this is a repetition of a really hurt place in my story. Because if not, then there will be no repair. Because Stephen could easily be like, Okay, fine, I won't run, but that doesn't actually repair the feeling of but you would have, you would have come home and thought it was completely acceptable to grab your running shoes and go for a run without even checking in. Like, Hey, do you want to go for a walk? Do you like? What do you need? I'm here to check in. Like, the dynamic with just a changed behavior doesn't change. It doesn't repair or create that sense. But even if, even if you can't connect it to a story in that moment, yeah, the real time does work. I'm feeling taken advantage of. I'm feeling like you're prioritizing your needs and not even wondering about mine. Like, how do we how do we get this back into balance?

Stephen | And this is where that intentional listening. So there's this part of any storytelling, right? Somebody tells a story, and then there's someone who bears witness to the story, who, who, like, think about it. Like your your kids come up to you and they're like, I look, look, look, look, look at what I drew, or, Hey, look at what I was reading. Like, they bring you whatever it is, and they tell you the story about it, because they want you to bear witness to that story. They want you to lean in and have wide eyes and be like, Oh, that's important. And then ask questions, tell me some more about it. And so that intentional listening place is that place of bearing witness. And so it kind of goes like this. So Erin says, Oh, so you need a little you time, huh? And I listen to that. And what I have to do is I have to do the same thing. I have to assess, whoa, whoa. I didn't like, you know, my body tensed. I didn't like, Oh, I'm feeling, I'm feeling frustrated now 

Robin | Defensive. 

Stephen | Defensive exactly. I have to realize that that is happening. And then the step for me is that is one of the toughest steps. But I have to suspend my defensiveness, I have to say, Wait a second. Now, I could get into it with Aaron. I could, you know, say, like, well, that, you know, what are you talking about? Well, that was kind of a snarky way to say something to me. What do you you know? Or I could suspend my defensiveness and then clue into my partner's story, because maybe she doesn't start perfectly. 

Erin | No, let's just assume that I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed, and I don't and I do say, she says that, oh, Stephen needs a little me time. 

Stephen | And I can be like, Hey, what's going on? And then that can be the like, the opportunity, the invitation, for Erin to tell me that story, and that's a story that I can listen to, and I can believe I can bear witness to it, and then if there is something to repair, it would be something like, oh, well, I get, I get how this like, that's not my intention at all, but I understand that me getting my running shoes and taking off. Like, I get how it gets into that story, hey, I'm, I am, I'm sorry for that. I don't need like, I don't need to run like, or we can say, or she can be like, No, you know, I appreciate you. That's great. It's fine, you know, like, like, we, we've been able to work through whatever it is that is happening. But I think that that listening part allows the story to be heard, and it allows me to repair like, because a lot of people are like, well, that's not what you meant to do. You didn't mean to tap into that story.

Erin | Well, so what running like? The reason I think that these kinds of examples are so important, running is good. I do objectively acknowledge that Stephen running is better for our marriage. So it's like, of course I want that. And that would be his response over and over, like, I don't understand. Like, so you don't want me to run? And I'm like, No, of course I want you to run. Well, it feels like you don't, like, I don't understand, and so we're gonna fight. And that's where that conflict feels, cyclical and like we're banging our heads against that brick wall.

Robin | Which I think is just so common, is the cyclical arguments you're fighting about the same things over and over. And what your teaching is getting is going, it's like, this is why the the act of the intentional expressing is so important. Yes, getting to like, this is where, this is the root of it. Like the root is the that's where, like, the Heart to Heart, repair. That's if you're able to actually identify that, which I think people, I think would have a hard time doing. Some people would be like, I don't know what this feeling is that I'm feeling, but I'm pissed, but okay, what's underneath that? What's underneath that?

Erin | I think that's exactly right. That's our first thing. When people who really don't know, and this is, like, new understanding your story and how impact. Because a lot I, you know, I told a pretty nasty story about my dad, but otherwise, like, I had a lot of wonderful things happen in my childhood. It's not like I would be like, well, it makes sense, because my childhood was terrible and everything traumatic. Like, no, but like, there are some things that I don't want repeated in this relationship, and when I even, like, put a little like a feeler out for, like, wait a minute, like, full stop breaks. And that is what conflict is representing. We don't want those places in this family.

Stephen | And Robin, like you said, not like there's people who would have a hard time with it. You know what? I think that everyone has a hard time with it. That's the skill building, right? And honestly, that's why we exist in the world. We're like, this is what we want to help you as a couple to do. Like to learn these skills, to know those stories, because then this is the beautiful thing that happens, Erin and I have that conversation.

Erin | Yeah, I said it nasty, you were like, Whoa, something's important. I'm there is a piece to this I'm missing, and I'm like,

Stephen | And now I have a marker. I have a marker in my mind of, oh, Erin has a story. She has a she has a an experience where, when she feels that she is being taken advantage of, she has a strong response to it, which is understandable, which, you know what? Next time I do something like, let's say next time I go and pick up my shoe, because I forget and I don't remember, and I come home say, Hey, I'm gonna run. I go and grab my shoes. And she's like, really? I go, oh, this is the thing. I'm I'm totally being entitled and say, like in Oh, you know what? I get it. My bad, I forgot and and now you kind of have a theme, yeah, you have these signposts in your relationship that actually allow you to have three second conversations that repair, as opposed to 30 minute, hour long conversations, right?

Robin | Right. And I think so that, like, I think of Laura Berman, Dr. Laura Berman talks about, in her book about, it's like, like, a little cactus, like a little, think about a cactus with spikes, yeah. And it's like, you know, hopefully we're not all walking around with a million spikes on our bodies, we might have, like, I don't know, 10 like, or maybe more, but it's like, when you know that spike in your partner, it's like, an ouch, like, Uh oh, that was an ouch that you I just touched on my partner, that this is putting bringing it up, an ouch for them. And that awareness alone is like, and then the compassion around that, and also you tread lightly around that and you be aware of it, because that's a loving act. It's like, I know that it's not like that your partner needs to get rid of it. No, that's not it, because that's not the solution. It's recognizing where the ouch is and being like, okay, like, I know that about my partner. That's a trigger or a little, a little spike.

Erin | I think that's excellent way of saying it. 

Stephen | And in the book, we say, like, you know, conflict can be attached. They can be attachment breaking interactions, where they can be attachment making interactions, yeah, and that's where you can begin to have just stack up all of these attachment making interactions and memories, right? That that that connect you and help. Feel close and connected, as opposed to stacking up all of these attachment breaking interactions that just result in resentment, and then you've got miles and miles of resentment built up towards each other. So I think it it is like how it shifts the ethos and feeling and culture of your relationship through conflict,

Robin | So you've got, in your book, you've got 13 very common conflicts that couples go through. And I read through them, like, oh, yeah, that one, totally that one, yeah. Like, there was a couple that didn't resonate. But I think that that's just not, it's not like you're gonna have all 13, right? But like, for instance, like, I'm just gonna name a couple of them, and people just have to listen and read your book, because I just think I love the examples and the narrative too. Like, if you listen, I think you're really gonna it really hits home. So I'm all touched out. Yeah, that's a you know, that is such a common one, especially when you've got little ones, like a baby or like little kids that you're constantly holding, touching, like, as a woman, you breastfeeding, yeah, and your partner is feeling like, well, now you don't want like, and you, of course, there's also, there's no sex life, which, right, is not 100% tied to this, but it like your physical connection, has dwindled, right? So there's the touched out partner, and then the touch deprived partner,

Stephen | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erin | Well, I think for our relationship too, and this is one of the reasons I really like this, because I think most commonly, I think people do think of like the person who wants touch is the dad who's not getting any.

Stephen | Yeah, like, in mixed gendered couples, right? Certainly, yeah. 

Erin | But for us, I've always been the high touch partner. Always, if I'm sad, I want, like, like a hand on my shoulder, if I'm excited, like, Let's hug. Like, always. And then we had little tiny humans, and I did not want any of those things. And Stephen's like, I honestly don't know how how to comfort you. I don't know how to celebrate with you. Like, I don't know what you want, and and also me too, like, me either I don't know what I want, but I don't want that. Like, No, don't touch me when I'm crying. Like, how dare you? Because it, it just, it's just different. You're relearning your body, you're relearning your emotions, you're relearning what connection does look like, feel like, what comfort means, all those things, but yeah, they're really important conversations to have.

Stephen | That are important because they that can be such a painful like both partners feel so pained by how the other is responding. One feels so rejected and the other feels so unknown and like, often mischaracterized, yeah, and sometimes even violent. Like, stop touching, like, don't come into my space and like, it can feel really, really painful, but when you kind of work through it and understand a lot of the dynamics that are there. It is a much more like, Oh, okay. Like, yeah, this makes sense. How do we navigate it, right? 

Erin | You know, again, back to that, like, it's me and you against, versus, it's coming between us and feels really personal.

Robin | So how are you helping people with that?

Erin | With the touch, or the 

Robin | Yes, because, you know the one like, I know that I went through it. And I was talking to my best friend about this, too, and when her, when her daughter was little, we both went through it. And I think it's just so common. Do you like? I think it's, I think there's like, a time like, you know, maybe it's, I think for me, I think was about nine months where I was just like, because I might, I just felt so intense around touch and and sex, everything just like, wasn't happening because I'm like, I'm in pain still, like, first, like, just talking about that, but I'm like, over time, your body is going to heal and maybe just helping your your your partner, understand that, but then you're not even explaining it, because you're just like, Don't you understand? Like, you know? Yeah.

Stephen | I think you speak, I think that there's a really practical, like physiological reality, right? So, so a partner understanding, like, all that has gone into birth, all that is goes into breastfeeding, if you're breastfeeding, all that goes into postpartum healing and all of those things. But I think really, how we talk about it in the book too, is partners understanding those deeper stories, which is usually there's a partner who has a story that is telling them you are rejected and unwanted, so the partner who wants touch but can't get it feels rejected and unwanted, and the partner who feels touched out oftentimes feels unknown and unseen and mischaracterized and misunderstood. And really how we help couples through this is we help them explain and explore and describe those stories in more depth, so that again, because there's all kinds of. Practical things you can do, but if you don't resolve that, like, if I'm walking around saying, Man, my partner doesn't want me, my partner is just rejects me, or my partner doesn't get me, my partner doesn't know me like that. Like, there's some behaviors that you can change, but that doesn't change that story, and so partners have to understand the some of the deeper stories behind the I'm touched out argument, and that's how we interact with couples all the time. And when couples hear that, the partner who's feeling rejected usually their their partner looks at him says, I don't I don't want you to feel rejected like that. This, that's not what I'm saying at all.

In fact, it's literally not about you, not even a little bit. And I think that that's how this conversation can also start to feel violating to that person who is touched out. So like, the solution then is me touching my partner more. Oh, cool, more things I can give of myself to make them happy. Like, absolutely not, never, ever, ever is that answer,

and for that rejected partner to understand that, yeah, well, I don't, I don't want, I'm not trying to make you feel violated or unknown or like, like or

Erin | ike you're cold or effortless. It's, in fact, like, I think, I think that's exactly right, because again, it's back to like, you can change all these behaviors so you have a partner who wants more touch. So the simple behavior change would be like, Okay, we'll hold hands for two minutes every day. But that's terrible. If you've ever been in a hug where you know the other person does not want to be hugging you feel it. 

Robin | Or it's just, or like, or like obligatory sex. I mean, oh my god. It's like, just get over it. Get get on. Get this. Let's get this over with, like, that's not connection.

Stephen | I feel so wanted. 

Erin | Would you like? If you need to. Um, no, thank you. And, you know, like, we are wanting here, but like, and I think that that's exactly right. Your Your point being knowing each other and what these things mean. Because a lot of times we we hide that no one wants to say, I feel really unwanted by you. And I think the example of the touched out specifically is one of my favorite case examples we use in that story, because it feels really vulnerable. This partner tries so hard not to take it personally, like I want to be supportive to my partner, so of course, I'm not going to ask for that.

Robin | I know, and I and then and then, like, she's sitting on the couch watching right, and he and sometimes she doesn't even want him to sit next I don't want him to sit next to her. So yeah. And so he's like, sitting on the opposite side, going, like, you know, you could see it play out. To me, it's just, like, kind of painful to think about.

Erin | It's brutal. Oh, it really is, yes. And I really like the the progression that those two have in this story, because he's able to say, like, I don't want to ask something of you, so I so what he takes that to mean, then, is that he's not allowed to share his experience. And that's not true. We can let our partner know I'm feeling rejected without saying so you're rejecting me, and you have to touch me more, right? 

Robin | I'm feeling rejected. 

Erin | Yeah. Like, oh, it's, this is really hard.

Robin | It could be, like, I just, I really miss you. 

Erin | Yes, exactly. 

Robin | There is, like, just getting down to the emotion where it's just like, this is how I'm feeling, right? 

Erin | That's exactly right. 

Robin | And it's hurting, you know. And I don't know where to go with it, right? 

Erin | Exactly. And I'm trying not to put it on you, because that's not fair to put our feelings on our partner, but not sharing them isn't kind either. It leads to all sorts of miscommunication and misinterpretations, and no one wants to feel like when you sit down by your partner on the couch and you kind of like feel them scoot just a little or, like, steal up in their body, like, cool, it's terrible. 

Stephen | And I think one of the things we really try to provide because it's so hard, like, relationship, a relationship is a process, right? And a process is really hard to, like, tease out and to formulate, do this first step, do this second step, do this third step. And oftentimes it's really hard to find the language to describe your experience and then the language to engage with it. And so really, I mean, one of the things that we really wanted to do, and have tried to do in the book, is, first of all, to describe the experience in a way that feels like it connects to the experiences that people have, but then also to give them a language, give them a script, they don't have to use the same version. But at least it's like an outline, it's a it's a prompt.

Robin | And you know what? And I really like that, Stephen and Erin. There's like, there's no shame in this, okay? Like, we're struggling right now. We're having issues. I just picked up this book. It's called Too Tired To Fight. This is the script under I'm all touched out, yeah, and I just want to read this. And I know this sounds awkward and weird, but it's like, I love you, and it's important. What do you think? Like, I mean, honestly, like, why not? Like, what do you have to lose? At that point you're like,

Erin | Nothing to lose. Yeah, yeah. I was focusing a lot on the partner who feels the partner bristle. But you know what feels terrible too, is bristling when Stephen walks into a room and my body's like, ugh, um, that doesn't feel good. And it's like, how do we get back from that? And does that mean I don't love Stephen anymore? Am I not attracted to him? Do I like what? What does this mean? And we start to get in a really dark head space about it.

Robin | And that. Like, like, you made a good point. I think like, that person, that woman, let's say, in the example. She must be like, you know, feeling like, these are not right. This isn't a right feeling to be feeling towards my husband that I love very much, but I'm like, I really don't want him to touch me. Like, get away, yeah, and it's like, so you're feeling shame, self judgment, like something's wrong with our relationship. Like you could just imagine.

Erin | Yeah, and you can't possibly imagine feeling something else. Like, how does this sort of yucky feeling go away?

Stephen | And Robin, to your point, like we talked to couples about this all the time. And because we, you know, we talk about, like, how could you say this? Or if you say it this way, or, you know, maybe start the conversation this way, and we say, look, it's going to be clunky. It's not going to be smooth and seamless and like, you know, like you see on TV or in the movies or hear people talk like, it's going to be awkward. It's going to be like, I have a feeling, and I need to talk to you about it, and I don't know how, but let's give it a try. Like it, and that's fine, because again, we are learning, we are developing skills, we are practicing something. And actually what feels really good as as a couple is to work hard together towards something, and in all the awkwardness and silliness and and beauty you know of doing that. And I think that this is clunky, so do that together.

Robin | Something you also you talk about in the book and on your Instagram and through your videos. I really like this. There's a good example in the book around you know, who's the if there's a default parent and you know you want the other as the other person coming in, it doesn't even have to be the default parent. Let's just say, Well, yeah, like you're one, your partner is saying, How can, okay, tell me what to do? How can I help you? This is really funny, because I was talking about this few weeks ago, like one of my really good friends, she's a nurse, and she helps me with my son. And she said, like, very often, her husband will come in the room, there's like, laundry piled on the couch. She's at the kitchen, you know, she's doing dishes, or she's making, making food, and there's dishes in the sink. And he says, What could I do? And what she's like, What the f like this is like I and she just throws her hands up in the air, and just is like, nothing. Like at that point she and, you know, they've been together a long time, so you can see this, right? This is a dynamic that's very common, and I really like it how you're like, You're not here to be the helper, you're here to be the parent, the the partner, right? Yeah. So do not ask your your partner, who is doing like, they're like, what you do to help take a look around and just take initiative and be like, be that person. Just like, oh, like you said, like, I'm gonna cook dinner three days a week. I'm gonna like, you're laying out the things you are going to do to support your partner, rather than asking them for help on what you can do, because you're giving them another job.

Erin | Yeah, totally, yeah. Our sort of go to personal example on this is we during COVID specifically, but even still now one of our, like, really happy places is getting our groceries delivered. It a beautiful thing, and we don't always do it, but man, sometimes it's just like, this week we're gonna do them. 

Robin | There's no shame in that. 

Erin | Yeah. But so they come, and it happened probably a few weeks in a row, where Stephen would be like, hey, what do you want me to do? Say, like, with the chicken? Like, Hey, what's your plan for the chicken? Like, is this freezer? Is this deep freeze? Like, where?  I'm, like, In what world is what to do with the chicken my responsibility? Like, how is chicken my job? And it would, I would be like, I don't I mean, you're assuming I have our our meals mapped out, like, because that is not how we do. I mean, right, it would be delightful if we were the kind of people that had our monthly meals mapped out. But like, I don't have, I don't know. What's your plan for the chicken Stephen, and it became this sort of running joke, and honestly, now it actually is very funny, because we have resolved this, but Stephen will be like, Hey, what's your plan for whatever.

Stephen | Hey, what should I do with this ground beef? But it communicated to me even, even in terms of when we do think about dinner. Oftentimes, now, I don't come up to Erin and say, Hey, what's the plan for dinner? I'm entirely capable of cooking a meal like, I can do that, you know. And so sometimes what I'll do is I'll come up and say, like, Hey, I'm just wondering if you had a dinner plan, because if you don't, I like, I have one. I can, I can make one, but I'm just trying to verify that we're not, like, both working here, doing the same thing, or coming through and saying, like, Hey, I've got dinner planned. Like, and it really did shift my mindset about, like, how we divide things up in that in the house, and what are my expectations of you know, why do I need to say, like, Hey, is the laundry done yet? Like, go check and see if the laundry is done. If it's not, go get it. Does it need to be folded? Fold it? Like, is that proactive? Kind of, like, I, I can have some agency here too, and not dump that on my partner. 

Erin | I'm thinking of your friend and her husband who walks in and says, like, what? What do I do? And like, when the when the conversation has been had so many times where it's not productive, it just, it's tiresome. And of course, the answer is nothing like Never mind. But that will always lead in just a little bit of resentment. But the flip side of that? Because honestly, and I think, like, even if you were to, like, ask both of them, like their side of the story, that it has to be that, that contentious, but the typically, most often, in fact, the partner who's asking really is trying not to step on toes truly, like if we and that's if the best is assumed.

Stephen | Because the flip we hear of that oftentimes, is, well, if I just jumped in and started doing stuff, I wouldn't fold the towels right, or the right way, I wouldn't, and then you would come back and tell me I didn't do it right. So, you know what, like, what and, and that is, both of those are valid, but, but that then doesn't mean don't do anything.

Erin | Yeah the solution that cannot be disengaged and you handle everything and, or disengage and I'll handle everything. That's not connection. So I think, you know, the sort of like, at least give it a try. Solution to that is like, Hey, I was thinking of starting on the dishes. Does that sound like what you had in mind? And that's similar to what Stephen was saying about, like, this is my this is what I was thinking, because maybe, 

Stephen | Or this is my plan. This is the action that I am ready to do right now, like, there's and you don't have to be responsible for anything that happens, 

Erin | beginning to end all the way. 

Stephen | Yes, is my action. I just need to know if that action is, is in line with where you're at, where you're at.

Erin | Yeah and again. And this comes back to early parenting. But like, Stephen would walk in the door and would so often, like, the first thing he would do is, like, think to take our kid. I'm like, I don't want you to take our kid to give me time, because now that means I'm the one who's walking around our house and making sure the diapers are started and get like, no, no. Like, you don't get to do the fun thing like we have to agree on what help is actually helping, and if it's not, we have to renegotiate. Because I think a lot of times we assume we know what help is, but I don't want help so I can go do more laundry. No, thank you. Like, yeah, I'm very good on that. 

Stephen | We're equitable partners in the business venture here. You know, if you want to use business terms and then it's like, how do we want to divide the responsibilities that we are both, you know, we both need to be fulfilling, not like you're the CEO. Just let me know what I can do. 

Robin | Oh, goodness, no. Like, I'm not your parent. I am not here, you're not my employee, right? It's like, we're partners here, I think, yeah, it was just great. So I loved your book. I hope that all parents that are struggling in any like, I just think if you're, if you're co parenting, you probably are, like, going through some of this stuff, and you can, we can all learn new skills to be better, like, so that we can have better relationships, especially with our intimate partner. 

Erin | Absolutely, I don't think we can ever have too many, right? Like, just tools in our pocket.

Stephen | And that's the goal. This is such a beautiful part of life, having kids and being parents, if we're privileged enough to be able to do that 

Erin | And/or choose to.

Stephen | Yeah, or choose to, and so much of like, the language even out there is like, Oh, get ready for things, just to get, you know, Oh, terrible, you know, all right, say goodbye to this part of it, and it's like no, like no. How do you thrive and engage in this beautiful time where you can experience love and connection on such deep levels, like, what do you need to do? What skills do you need to develop? How can you be intentional in a way that this new context asks you to be just like any new context would ask you to learn skills or be intentional?

Robin | Well, thank you both so much for being here. 

Erin | Thank you for having us. We loved it. 

Robin | I loved our conversation. I learned a lot. I always do. This is the best part of my job, really. So I'm going to close with a blessing. It is based on all on your sentiments from the book. So may we remember having conflict and disagreements between parents is not only normal, but it's necessary. Conflict done well and skillfully offers an opportunity for a connection. We've been talking about that today, may we understand the intention of conflict is a movement toward genuine mutual understanding and repair, and may we be intent on remaining close with our partners, even in the midst of the chaos of parenting moments, knowing that we are ultimately on the same team. For sure. 

Erin | Beautiful. Thank you for that. 

Stephen | Yes. 

Robin | Thank you Erin and Stephen. 

Stephen | Thank you, Robin.