Zach Brittle & Laura Heck - Rediscover Connection

In this episode of Let’s Talk Love, host Robin Ducharme is joined by Zach Brittle, LMHC, and Laura Heck, LMFT—co-hosts of the podcast Marriage Therapy Radio and authors of Reconnect: A Marriage Counseling Workbook. As Certified Gottman Therapists, Zach and Laura bring their expertise to a conversation about the intricacies of love and relationships. Together, they explore the power of curiosity, the importance of small gestures, and the distinction between adoration and appreciation in fostering emotional connection. Zach and Laura discuss appreciating partners for who they are rather than what they do, reevaluating roles and responsibilities to maintain fairness, and supporting each other's dreams. Packed with practical advice and heartfelt insights, this episode offers tools for couples to deepen intimacy and navigate relationship challenges.

Takeaways:

• Curiosity is essential for meaningful relationships.
• Small gestures can significantly impact emotional connection.
• The ReConnect workbook is designed for couples feeling disconnected.
• Adoration in a relationship goes beyond appreciation.
• Meaningful conversations sustain healthy marriages.
• Couples should prioritize small things often.
• The sin of certainty can hinder relationship growth.
• Creating rituals can enhance emotional intimacy.
• Regularly reevaluating household roles can improve relationship satisfaction.
• Supporting each other's dreams is essential for a thriving partnership.
• Revisiting the love story can help couples reconnect and find joy.
• Communication is key to understanding each other's perspectives.
• Emotional labor is often overlooked in relationship dynamics.
• Couples should aim to be each other's biggest supporters.
• Shared goals and visions strengthen the bond between partners.
• A positive perspective can reveal the good that exists in relationships.

We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Links:

https://marriagetherapyradio.com/

Workbook - https://amzn.to/4ds7XY6

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Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love today. We're going to talk a lot about love with our two experts today. This is so exciting. We have Zach Brittle and Laura Heck, who I I've been listening to your podcast MarriageTherapy and learning so much about you. And I just love your dynamics. So thank you both for being here today. 

Zach Brittle l No problem. 

Laura Heck l Thank you.Yeah.Yeah,

Zach Brittle l We've been hanging out. We've been together since 8am it's now 11 o'clock. So this is we're both a little punchy

Laura Heck l It's a lot for Zach and I

Robin Ducharme | Yeah, yes. And so I know you're both, can you just tell me? I know you're both marriage therapists. Zach, you're based out of Seattle, and Laura, you're in Bend Oregon. So you both have separate practices, being marriage counselors, but you also have your podcast called Marriage Therapy.

Zach Brittle l Marriage Therapy Radio

Robin Ducharme | Friends, Marriage Therapy Radio, I'm sorry, yeah, and you've been friends for like, a lot of years, and you're kind of like brother and sister. 

Laura Heck l True

Robin l From your dynamic? 

Laura l Yeah it's true. We are still trying to figure out who the older like sibling, if we have like a sibling dynamic, who the older sibling is, although it's obvious that I'm the youngest and better looking of the two, but

Zach l We were just talking before you came on with with Maia, that Laura just ran the New York Marathon, which is amazing, and I'm really excited and proud of her. But I also ran a marathon, but I ran a marathon half my life ago. I was, I was less than half of my current age when I ran my last marathon. So it's

Laura l Which means he was young, because he's not. How old are you now?

Zach l 51 

Laura l 51

Zach l Yeah,

Laura l Yep. 

Zach l So 

Laura l I'm gonna break his record in my 40s. Just want you to know

Zach l You already did. No, you mean with the time? 

Laura l Yes, 

Zach l okay,

Laura l yeah.

Robin l Well, I think that's just incredible. I've never, I have never ran a marathon or a half marathon. The longest I've done is 10k. And I thought that was a pretty big deal. 

Zach l Yeah, 

Laura l 100% Yeah, it absolutely is. But yeah, Zach and I, we're buddies, and we teach together. So we have, we're both teachers for the Gottman Institute. And I know you know who the Gottmans are. 

Robin l Sure Do

Laura l Julie Gottman, yes, so we, t

Robin l We so excited they're gonna be coming at our summit this year. 

Laura l I saw that 

Robin l It's so exciting.

Laura l Your lineup is incredible. 

Robin l Thank you

Laura l I think you're gonna really benefit. You got some really great speakers to join the phenomenal 

Robin l You're both but you both follow so you both Gottman. Can you tell certified that Gottman certified therapist? And what does that mean? 

Laura l Yeah Zach

Zach l Um ok so, so being a certified Gottman therapist basically means that you are trained in Gottman method couples therapy, which is based on his in particular research, about 40 years of research with couples really just trying to figure out. I mean, he will tell you to this day, he was not trying to help anybody. He just wanted to know, like, what worked and what didn't. And so the methodology helps people do more of the things that work, and that is collectively, sort of understood as the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. That's his best selling book. And then fewer of the things that cause divorce. John Dr Gottman got famous for being able to predict divorce, meaning that he sort of positively correlated behaviors that were present for couples that were miserable or who were divorcing or who just kind of couldn't figure out how to make it work. And so correlating that and understanding it meant, you know, if you do fewer of these things and more of those things, then you can, you can have a marriage that that, that you can enjoy and celebrate. That's the quick and dirty on what it means to be a certified Gottman therapist

Robin l Right.

Laura l So we're, we're vetted. I mean, there's a lot of people that that utilize their research and that have read the books, but the process of going through and actually becoming certified, I think we're probably up to about 400 in the world that have been certified. So it's a really small number of specialists that the Gottman Institute has vetted, has said, yes, we have taught you, and you've been able to prove competency, and we want for you to represent the Institute as a certified Gottman therapist. So it's a pretty special, you know, designation in the world. And then we were on staff, and continue to be on staff, whether we're like an employee or an instructor, basically. So we teach for the Gottman Institute, we will offer the Art and Science of Love, which is a workshop that they offer, and we'll host that, or we will teach other clinicians how to offer workshops using the protocol and the curriculum. So, yeah, we're pretty involved with the Institute.

Robin l I think that's that's fantastic. And you just wrote your work our own book together, right? 

Laura l We did 

Robin l Thank you for sharing with with us. My my colleague, Kirsten, and I work on all of our podcasts and research everything before we have guests on and we both read through your workbook. It's fantastic. I mean, it's one of these things that you're gonna  um, pick up over and over and over again. So tell us about Reconnect and what led you to write your workbook and who it's for. And then I'd like to get into some of the meat of it. 

Zach l Yeah, 

Laura l Yeah

Zach l Sure, that project was ideal for us. We we found a publisher who wanted to help people kind of make a difference on the ground in their day to day life. One of our priorities for Marriage Therapy, Radio, the podcast that we do, is that we want people to have two experiences all the time. And number one is that they say, hmm, I never thought about it like that before. And number two is that they have something practical that they can do to like change, just their their day to day living in a relationship. So the book really is kind of a combination of those two things and the combination of our particular skill set. So I'm more of a kind of a literary metaphor waxing poetic guy, and so I got to write a lot more of the kind of the meatier reflectiony kinds of parts. 

Laura l Yeah.

Zach l And then Laura is excellent at, like, helping people take a concept and and put it in motion, or put it in practice, and so thinking about questions or activities or, you know, so we just got to kind of take, I don't know, 45 topics or so and just sort of say, Okay, what does it mean to think about this topic, and then what does it mean to actually connect with another person around the content. And so we just went back and forth for like, a year, just going, Okay, how about this, and then how about that, and then how about the other thing. And functionally, it's a book about curiosity, I think, and and about how to have meaningful conversation. So I don't think you can have a meaningful relationship without curiosity and and then you have to sometimes add this other thing, which is a skill of learning how to talk to people. So that's my that's my elevator pitch. Laura, what do you think?

Laura l Well, I think the ideal audience for this book is going to be couples that have been together for a while. And I, you know, I don't want to put a number on it, if it's couples that have been together for 10 years, 20 years, but if you are experiencing some kind of drift of connection between the two of you, and drift could be because you had children, and suddenly the relationship that was once the priority is no longer. It's it's actually at the bottom of your list. And so you've drifted apart emotionally, you've disconnected. I had a couple in my practice came to me yesterday, and they have been married for about 10 years, but they're later in life, and it's like their second or third marriage. And so when they came together, they maintained their independence quite significantly, and there wasn't a whole lot of merging between their two lives. And they just said, we are really great functionally as roommates, but we don't have a lot that creates that sort of like we ness between the two of us. And I am going to ship the book reconnect to them, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to sign up for therapy because I offered them a free book, so they're just going to go through the book instead. But it's just, it's a really great way for couples who feel disconnected, who feel maybe like stale, I think about too like, if you have someone that is feeling maybe a little lazy in the relationship, unmotivated, even like a little hopeless, I think the best way to create that sort of momentum is to give them something to physically do. It's not about reading a book and having like, an aha moment. It's about having an aha moment and then doing something with your partner, like having a great conversation or doing an activity together that gives you a new shared experience, just to kind of get you, pull you out of the muck of stuckness.

Robin l Yes, it's full of, I think there's, you said, some like, 50 different exercises that you can do, right? And so, like, I've heard you both talk about different ways that people can use it, so it's either like, you know, just picking it up on a date night, or 

Laura l Totally

Robin l Like, we're doing it over a year. I know I've heard you say that Laura like that could take, well, 50 weeks. I mean, I don't know how many couples would actually invest in doing that every week. I it's a beautiful idea. I don't but, yeah, but there's different ways that you would use it, right? Like, if it was to be successfully used, what would? What would be different ways, like just setting aside your time, right? Even once a month, being like, this is our where they have time 

Laura l Or date night. Sometimes I'll have couples that they're they're really kind of balancing and weighing how they're going to use their resources, their time, which is really limited, to find time that they're together, maybe without their children, and then how they're going to use their money. And they're having to figure out, do we go on a date night, or we do we come to therapy? And I will often say, don't come and see me if you are trying to debate whether or not you're going to go spend meaningful time connecting with your partner, or if you're going to come to therapy go on your date night. So how I imagine this working really well is have a couple schedule if you're not willing to go to therapy. Schedule time every single week, and ritualize it, and say, like our Friday at four o'clock, we do happy hour, and during happy hour, we make our favorite beverages, we sit, we light the fire and candles, and then we go through one of the chapters of the book. And you can do that in lieu of going to therapy. I mean, I'm I'm always a big fan of therapy, but if that's never been on your radar, and you want to try the book, this is a great way to connect with each other.

Robin l Yes

Laura l How I imagine it

Robin l It's called a marriage counseling workbook?

Zach l Yeah

Robin l Reconnect, a marriage counseling workbook. So it's like, this is, I think, a great way to have, like, work through your own counseling.

Zach l Yeah

Laura l Yeah.

Zach l I got a couple who's in their 80s, and they have, I guess, gave them the book, because they're, you know, whatever. It doesn't matter what their story is. 

Laura l They're your favorites. New gift.

Zach l And they pick it up. They're pretty great. They pick it up, though, and they're just like, they have it on the table, and they just, like, flip to a page. And then they just evaluate whether or not they want to do that one. And then they say, oh, this is this question as a typo. And then like, Oh, I like that one. We never thought about it before, but they're using it. They're they got their hands on it. They have their hands on it. They have their pen in it. And it just is a way for them to kind of literally flip to almost any page and decide how they want to spend the next 15 minutes of their life either sitting in silence or just asking a question they never thought about before. I mean, and it's not like those are the only two options, but this they they need and want something just to prompt new conversation. They've talked about everything under the sun that, I mean, what? They don't have anything else to talk about unless they, yeah, get prompted. 

Laura l You know, wouldn't it be cool if, if folks just put this in, like, the center console of their vehicle, so that the next time they were on a road trip, they're like, oh, look at this fancy book I have. Let's go through some of these questions. Since you're trapped in the car with me for the next two hours

Robin l There are just so many fantastic questions to ask your partner. And one thing you say is, the central question that drives this workbook is, why does meaningful conversation sustain healthy marriages? Meaningful conversation is the lifeblood of any lasting, loving relationship, and I get that right. It's like, right now I'm in my boyfriend and I have been together for over eight months, which is still a new relationship, so we are constantly asking each other questions. I'm super curious to get to know him, because there's so much I want to know. And so I think in a new relationship that comes naturally. But something you talk about in your book, which I think is so fantastic, is something that's called the sin of certainty, which I think a lot of couples get lost in, right? It's like, can you explain what sin of certainty is because this is something that I think so, like the couples have been together for 10 years. They're in this, like a lot of them.

Laura l Yeah, this is definitely Zach's alliteration, even though certainty starts with a C has the S sound, but this is his creation. So I'll let you answer that the sin of certainty

Zach l Well, actually, like, it warms my heart that that's what you picked out, because I think it is maybe the most egregious sin that you can levy inside of a relationship, which is, I already know what you're going to say. I already know who you are. I already know what I think. I already know like and I'm and I'm stuck in that. And that really, it really robs the relationship and your partner the opportunity to be fluid, to change, to grow to, yeah. And so, you know, I think the opposite of certainty is curiosity, which is, that's what you're talking that's what Laura's talking about, which talks about the kind of the alliteration. And so, you know, curiosity needs to be not only what you and your boyfriend are doing, which is kind of asking new questions and figuring out, like, what's what's going on, and like, where did you go to college, and what music do you music do you like? And, you know, who do you what's the greatest concert you've ever been to, whatever. Like, it's also letting your partner surprise you. You know, this is why we say on the podcast, we want people to have the experience of like, huh? I never thought about it this way before, because if you've locked them down and decided that they are already, you know, grouchy or anxious or an introvert or a spender or whatever it is, and you and you and you block them into that persona, then they don't have any room to nobody has any room to grow. And so I 

Laura l That's where relationships, I think, fall apart. Is the whole like idea of, I can't envision myself being a better version with you, because I'm not able to grow within the context of this relationship. And if that's the case, then I'm going to move on to a new relationship. But if the two of you are staying curious and also allowing that opportunity of, hey, there's things about you that I haven't learned yet, and there are certainly things about me that you haven't asked about. 

Zach l Here's another one 

Laura l Still have. Yeah,

Zach l There are things about me I haven't learned yet. 

Laura l Oh 

Robin l Yes, 

Zach l You know,

Robin l I really like that Zach, and I think it's like so in this is, like, my third, you know, I've been married twice, and so. And with this relationship, there's so much more intention on this being different. Like I'm older now I've changed, or I've dissolved a lot of my belief systems around relationships that don't exist anymore in my life. And I really want this to be different. I want to be curious. I want to be open minded. And you know, if we differ, it's like, tell me more about that. Rather than, you know, my old self would have been like, fuck that. Like, totally judgmental, or I don't believe that. And then you're stuck in your like, no so, and so it's so there's this, this dynamic that I have now with my partner, which I think is so beautiful. But if you're with your partner for 10 years, how do you undo right and get more curious instead of just breaking up and finding a new partner that will look at you with a different lens? That's a challenge.

Laura l Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, because I find that a lot of couples get really stale and bored, and part of being stale and bored is being boring yourself. So like, if I flip it, if I flip it and I'm like, you, if you're bored in your relationship, it's probably because you're boring and and what I like about the book is like, let's just assume that you are stuck, that you assume that you you're certain and you know who your partner is. You're certain that you know yourself. You certain of the trajectory of the relationship, and if you start to work, 

Zach l Sorry, say it one more time, 

Laura l I know, when I said, I know I immediately trajectory, not terjectory. This is the part where I'm like, Thanks, bro. Thanks for pointing that out

Zach l We have a we teach this one workshop, and one of the words that is in Laura's script is editable, like you can edit this slideshow, so it is edit, editable. And she regularly says, edable, yeah, it's edible, but you hit it, you crushed it. Last week. You did it. 

Laura l I sure did, and I appreciated that you pointed it out to everybody that I said it correctly. I lost my train of thought. I'm so sorry, Robin, 

Zach l We do that, by the way, too. In case you're wondering, we I

Robin l I know that happens. So what you know, what I would like to go through, because I your podcast is fantastic, and I learned something every time. And I know that's your intention. So way to go. 

Zach l Thanks. 

Laura l Few

Robin l ne of and you talk about a lot of these, these principles in your book. So I wanted to go through, like, what are the keys to a successful partnership? Okay. Because  think it's like, there, there are, like, the fundamentals that I think we've lost. A lot of us have in our in our partnerships, our relationships, 

Laura l Yeah. 

Robin l So one of the first things is small things. Often the Gottmans talk about this, right? And I think we can all understand the principle of it. But can we, can we go through like, what that, what that actually means, like, what the small things often mean? And also, I would like to hear about how you are doing this in your own marriages. 

Laura l Oh interesting. Um, I'll take this one. So the idea of small things often it is 100% like that is a Gottman motto of doing well. It kind of goes back to this idea of, like, creating small, tiny, little moments in the relationship that actually funds the relationship with a lot of positivity. So when you wake up in the morning, you roll over and you kiss your partner before you get out of bed. That's one small gesture, one small deposit in that emotional bank account. It doesn't have to be Hey, honey, I planned this elaborate date night for the two of us. I'm gonna whisk you away like something that you've planned, and you put a lot of money and energy into both are amazing gestures. Both leave your partner feeling like they're cared for, they're loved, they're appreciated, they're thought of. But one was a really small gesture and one was a really big gesture. So the idea is that it's really not about how big the gesture is. It's the consistency that you're able to turn in turn toward and be available for your partner emotionally. So those small gestures, what does that look like, fundamentally like in our my relationship with my husband, so we just celebrated 15 years married. We've been together maybe 20, which is hard to believe, right? Just kidding. No, we've been together for 20 years, and I think it's the the small, little moments that I look forward to, like every night before we go to bed, regardless of whether we're in a hotel, we're staying at grandma and grandma's house, we're in our own bed, or even in our Sprinter van. My husband will drape himself over me, and he will demand that I scratch his back, and it's just a way of the two of us connecting at the end of the day, of just having physical touch and turning toward each other. And it's just that small gesture that the two of us have that's really meaningful, but it also continues to build trust in our relationship, that I will always be there for him, and he will always turn toward me for physical affection. Right? 

Robin l That's beautiful 

Laura l Yeah, just a small gesture,

Robin l Yes, but it's always special between you

Laura l Between the two of us, exactly. It's part of our ritual, and we look forward to it. And Zach likes to say, like, when you when you miss a ritual, you miss it. And I do when he's not around. In fact, he was gone last week, the entire week, he came home and I think he was like, let's get in bed. Was like, It's seven o'clock at night. He was like, taking his shirt off, I'm ready. I've missed this. Where are you? 

Robin l Awww that's just really sweet

Laura l It's really great. PG, I promise it's just back scratching, 

Robin l Yeah Zach, what about you? 

Laura l Zach, yeah,

Zach l Yeah. I mean, I think the reality is that the Gottman method sort of supposes that there are three sort of primary competencies in any relationship. And the first one is really around the friendship. The second one is about managing conflict or managing difference, and the third one is about kind of mission, vision, values. But people always come in and they want skills to manage conflict. That's what usually brings people into some kind of a relationship moment, is that there's a crisis or there's a pain point, and that pain point is usually around conflict. And the thing about small things often is it is the way that you manage conflict. You you build the friendship. You build equity in the emotional bank account. You protect the relationship from stuff, because when you're feeling good, when you're feeling known, when you're feeling supported, when you're feeling uh, attractive, when you're feeling like, then a lot of stuff brushes off, brushes off your shoulder, like, they might be 10 minutes late, but you you know you're getting a big hug, or you know that they or maybe they called you in advance, like, but when you're when you don't feel those things, and somebody's 10 minutes late, you can begin to make up a story about their care for you, their investment in the relationship, whether or not this is going to keep happening, whether or not anything is ever going to change. So small things often really is this notion of buffering the relationship against the possibility of conflict. And for Rebecca and I, I mean, it's pretty well ingrained now, like, it's almost unconscious, but it's things like, please and thank you. It's eye contact. It is little non sexual touch in the car, on the couch. It's also sexual touch, of course, but, like, it's a bunch of little things, yeah, that just say to her, and she to me, I got you. You're my person. I'm I'm interested in you. You know, for her, she's actually learned that the way she answers the phone is part of small things often, you know, if she answers something like, hey, babe, then that is buffering us against, you know, hey, hello, you know, so it's, it's, sometimes it's super subtle. It doesn't even have to be very relational. It can just be a choice that you make to be friendly over and over again. And then in you can graduate up. There are more advanced skills here. But sometimes it's really just as simple as just kind of being kind.

Robin l Yes, it is. It is so much about, like, the fundamentals of being a really good human and kind and loving towards your part, your person, like respect, kindness, attention, like that person, you want that person to feel seen? Oh my gosh. I love this, Laura, that you talk about something else, like, I've learned so much from you this this week, because I really have you. This is this was really good. You talk about adoration over appreciation, 

Laura l Yeah.

Robin l Oh my gosh. Like this to me, was like, 

Laura l Mind blown right, 

Robin l Mind blown. And I was talking to my, my boyfriend, about this, like last night at dinner, 

Zach l What's his name?

Robin l Hector 

Laura l Hector

Robin l Hector I'm not saying it right, because he's from Mexico.

Zach l Hector. Okay, good.

Robin l I call him Hector

Zach l Let's let's just talk about Hector. 

Robin l So um, I'm, we are continuously saying how grateful we are for each other and for the things that we do for each other, like we're, you know, and we do, we have so much kindness and graciousness towards each other, but the one and I adore him, I really do, like my friends are like how's Hector and. I'm like, I love him so much. He's the best. And my daughters just roll their eyes. Are like, Oh my god, Mom, you're so annoying, because they know how much I adore him like I adore him. And so talk to us about this, this principle of, like, getting back to adoration. I mean, you can appreciate somebody, and I do appreciate him, but I also adore him. 

Laura l Yes so, and I think we, we might move in and out, kind of depending on the life cycle that we're in where, 

Robin l Yes, of course

Laura l You might be in a place where it feels really good to be appreciated, to be seen for the things that you're doing, like I, I did a project, ah, maybe like 10 years ago, where we interviewed 100 men, and I asked them a bunch of questions, and what we learned over and over and over is the lack of appreciation that men were getting from their partners, they weren't being verbally appreciated for the things that they should be doing. So it's little things. So they just, they shared, they said it would feel really nice to be appreciated for my partner to make a point, to say, hey, thank you so much for taking the garbages out to the street. I love that you do that I can rely on it every single week, and I really don't want to go out in the cold. So I really appreciate you doing that. So the difference between appreciation and adoration is it's thanking your partner for something that they do. And there are times during certain life phases where appreciation is really necessary. I have a lot of new parents where that is a phase, a life cycle, phase in life, where they say it would feel really good if somebody just looked over my shoulder and told me, I'm so grateful and thankful for the things that you're doing around the house and with the baby. That's appreciation adoration is verbally confirming to your partner that you love who they are. It's a difference between what they do versus who they are, and this is an important piece of the puzzle in actually transforming the thought process the lenses that you view your partner and the relationship through. Sometimes we can lose sight, and we put on our shit colored glasses, and all we see are the negatives. We see, the ways in which our partners letting us down, disappointing us, making our life more difficult, and so we're stuck in that shit colored glass lens. If we start to focus on adoration, the things that we adore about the character of our partner, we can begin to shift the lenses in which we view them through. So Robin, your rose colored glasses for Hector is very clear and obvious. Very obvious that you have rose colored glasses for him. It's probably really easy for you to pinpoint and pull out like 10 things that you just like, characteristics, things that you truly adore about him as a person, it probably wouldn't be very difficult for you to also appreciate the things that he does for you and in your life. It's harder to do in those longer, older, windedtaller relationships, where those lenses have shifted. So it is important for us to be thinking about not only appreciation, but adoration and connecting with that, those long winded answer for you, 

Robin l No, no it's such a great answer. Like, you give this example around, so in a context of just like language, okay, I could, I could see this because, I mean, I've got, I have three kids, and gone through that stage, those stages with my partners, and it's like, okay, yes, I thank you. I, you know, my husband, at the time, would would absolutely say, like, you're such a good mom, I appreciate everything you're doing. And we were really good at the appreciation piece. What I think was that what I was missing, if I was doing pull back those years, is like, god, you're sexy. I just want you right now, like you are so hot, and you're not feeling hot, like you just had a baby and you're breastfeeding and you're dripping everywhere, and, like, 

Laura l Totally

Robin l You want to be appreciated for the woman and you know, the partner that you you are, right? And you're all of that, like, that's the that's the adoring piece, for example, right.

Laura l Yeah, it's like, I choose you as a partner. I don't choose what you do I choose you to be my lover. I'm not choosing you because you make me dinner every night. I'm not choosing you because you do a great job of putting the kids to bed at night. Those are things you appreciate about me. But you choose me because you adore that I am funny and charismatic and sassy. That is the part that you're really connecting with. And it's nice to hear that your partner is choosing to love who you are, not what you do. 

Robin l Yeah

Laura l Yeah.

Robin l Okay. So something that, I mean, there's so many things, but I love the exercise that you have on page one, it's like 123  no, 1061, 07, 

Laura l We're pulling our books out

Robin l Responsibilities, okay. Because I think a lot of couples I knew. I mean, you're a couple's therapists, okay so you're seeing this a lot people are coming into your office and they're going, like, she doesn't do like she's not appreciating me, okay, he might be saying that, and she's going, he doesn't do anything to help me, like I am freaking doing it all. Okay, yeah, this is such a common, common complaint dynamic. And okay, a couple of things came to mind. So I've got nurses that help me with my son, and they're the most amazing people. They're like my three wives. I love them so much. And so I talked about that work all the time. 

Zach l I have three wives

Laura l Yeah He does.

Zach l I's one of my running jokes. I have a 51 year old wife. I have a 21 year old wife, and I have an 18 year old wife because 

Robin l Your daughters

Zach l All, my, all, my daughters, use my relationship skills. 

Robin l Yeah and so I was talking to one of my nurses, this exact this thing, and what she was saying, which is, I think it's so common, is like she and her husband will come and get in this kind of dynamic where he comes into the kitchen and goes, like. like, Well, what do you want me to do? What do you need? Right? And she's like, take a look around, right? Like, the sink is full of dishes, there's laundry on the couch. Like,

Laura l Yeah

Robin l And then she gets mad, and she's just like, at the state of just, like, nothing, just don't even so that is like a standstill. It's stuff. It's definitely continuous, right? 

Laura l Yeah

Robin l But you got this exercise on on 106-107 of your workbook where it lists, like, it's like four pages of like, the roles, the responsibilities in your relationship, everything from cleaning up, cleaning the bedroom, doing laundry, taking out the garbage, the recycling, booking kids dead, disappointments. I mean, you could, because there's obviously the emotional labor, but that takes time and energy, and then there's the physical where you have to do the tasks to upkeep your home and your life. And so why did you put this in there? And like, what would like? Because I thought this was an amazing exercise. I really did. I was like, because, and then you can show each other, right? This is what we're each doing, and it gives a better, broader perspective, so you can have a better discussion around it. 

Laura l Yeah. Well, it's, it's funny, because a lot of this actually comes out of Eve Rodsky's book Fair Play. Have you? Have you heard of Fair Play?

Robin l So we were booking Eve for a podcast, so, yeah, 

Laura l Awesome. 

Robin l We're gonna be taking to her.

Laura l Awesome. Yes, you and it's phenomenal. But, I mean, she wrote an entire book on this topic, which is, I mean, we all sort of fill these roles in our household, and sometimes it's very intentional of how you decided that you were going to fill that role in the household, and sometimes you just evolved into it. And maybe you evolved into it because you were a stay at home mom while your partner was working full time, and that was, that was sort of the way that your roles arranged themselves. Maybe you fell into it because it was your family of origin, and that's what you observed from your parents and the roles in which they filled. Maybe it's because you're best at that job and your partner is pretty awful. But I wanted for couples to become really aware of what was actually happening. I think perception is so flawed in relationships. When they start saying, I do everything around here, it's like, no, that's not actually true. You don't do everything. Your partner also does things. But it is true that we feel underappreciated, unseen. Nobody's going to pat you on the back and say, Good job cleaning those toilets other than you. So I think it's really helpful for couples to actually get a clear picture of who's actually doing the role currently. How satisfied are you with being in that role, and is this an opportunity for the two of you to rearrange your roles? And I think we should be doing this. I throw out an arbitrary number of like, every seven years, be able to come back to it and say, do we need to reevaluate our roles in the household? Does it make more sense for you to be driving the kids and dropping them off? Does it make more sense for you to be managing the finances? Where are we at current day, and what are we best at? What do we want to do? And I think Eve Rodsky's book is a fabulous book that if that chapter kind of sparked something for for a listener, then go, go do the entire Eve Rodsky Fair playbook, because it dives in deeper to kind of what we're tapping into in just this section. 

Zach l I think the other reason that we put it in there, and I maybe would say this about every chapter, is that people get lazy and they drop into assumptions or certainties about who does what and who should do what, and that often creates these guessing games, or this uncertainty. Like, wait a second. Like, I played this game with my 17 year old, which or she's 18 now, but like, I wonder how full the recycling bin has to get before she will take it out, you know. And like, when you start playing that with your peer, with your with your colleague, with your coworker, not your coworker, but your collaborator, it creates opportunities for resentment and for pain and for storytelling that just doesn't serve the relationship. And so I think getting it out on the table and going, hey, I have an assumption that you're in charge of laundry. Is that the right assumption? Well, it was, but now it's not because didididid or, you know, I think the all of this is in the spirit of staying curious and open and being willing to learn something new about whatever topic that you happen to, flip flip to, but that you made a really great point about some of this chore stuff. Because I think when people do evaluate the difference between like, hands on, this is what I'm supposed to accomplish by the time the garbage truck guys come to the curb is very different than I'm carrying all the emotional load of dentists, 

Laura l Cognitive, yeah, 

Zach l Sarah did her homework. And what's the deal with, you know, who got bullied at school yesterday and like, that's if you don't surface that stuff, then it remains hidden. And when and when it's hidden, you can make up story ways that maybe don't serve their relationship 

Robin l Right. And that's what I really like about a lot of this helps. This is you said it, Laura, it helps change the perception, change the way you're looking at how things really are, right, and you're getting each other's point perspective different. I think this is why the meaningful conversations is so important and curiosity, because the roles and the roles might not change, but maybe it's like, say to your partner, okay, I'm doing all this stuff like the emotional, what did you say? The cognitive

Zach l Cognitive load, or emotional way 

Robin l Sorry but maybe it's the partner that could say that that's not doing that all so much of the cognitive load, that's just saying, How can I support you, then, how can I be there for you more? Like, can I draw you the bath at night? Can I like, how can I be more of your caring for you, because you're doing so much for the kids, for example? Like, right? I remember just needing somebody back on .

Laura l I remember that being the case when, when we brought my son home and he was a newborn, I remember somebody saying that newborn is going to be attached to you, Laura, for every hour for the first month and even more. And so there's not going to be a lot for Dad to do, but what happens is now Dad shifts to taking care of your needs. And it was really great. I was like, okay, I am primary for my son, my husband is primary for me, and then his parents came into town, and they were primary for my husband, making sure that he was fed. And it was great, I mean, but it didn't happen unless we had a conversation of expectations, roles, all of that needed to happen outwardly. We hold so much in ourselves with all of these, like silent contracted like covert contracts and rules and expectations that we never communicate to our partner, but we can get on the same page if we start actually sharing, like, oh, this is how I actually feel about this, and this is what I really would like to see then, then you're on the same page.

Robin l Yes

Laura l Yeah.

Robin l So another key to a successful relationship, which I really love, this is, and this is, is supporting each other like being your partner's greatest ally and supporter in their dreams and their their mission. Can we talk about that? Because that, I think, is that's that's a really, really important one that maybe a lot of couples are missing.

Laura l Yeah, Zach, do you want to start

Zach l Well, yeah, it's sort of like I hinted at a little bit earlier. There's kind of these three primary competencies, and one is the quality of the friendship. One's the ability to manage different and then there's this sense of, do we have the same mission, vision, values, like, are we aligned in terms of what we want to accomplish and how we do that? I was just, we were just talking a little bit earlier, Laura and I about, you know is, what is the couple about? Do they have something that drives them, that wakes them up in the morning? What is the what is the thing that ends for a lot of people, particularly if they have kids, it's about legacy, right? It's about having some impact on the way the next generation thinks about relationships or money or, you know, adventure or whatever it is. But I think when you don't have that, it's easy to feel adrift. And so the reality for us is that we're trying to help couples attach to like, what it is that they that they want to pursue. And so Laura is, she's a good example between the two of us, like she and her husband and son. They are really about adventure. They pursue Advent. They so they wake up and they orient and they think about, like, what's the next adventure that we're going to go on and that and and I can say to you and to anybody, that's what they're about. You know, we, in my marriage, we've been about different things as we've gone through different phases. My kids are I'm about to be in an empty nest, and we're thinking about practically right now, like what, what do we want to do? And that forward thinking gets us out of kind of the roommate syndrome that that we talk about a lot of times, where there's just sort of this ships in the night, parallel paths. You know, we're actually trying to figure out, like, how do we create something that is indicative of our actual value set? And so I have some, and Rebecca has some, and I try to be as supportive as possible of what she's dreaming about. She's trying to be as supportive as possible. So I'm dreaming about and then in that, we're trying to figure out, like, where's the opportunity that overlap and and actually accomplish or do or plan something specific. And I think without that, it's easy to feel rudderless, which is why, when a lot of couples empty nest, they look at each other and they kind of go, blink, blink, blink, blink,

Robin l What do we do? Now, it's been all about the kids. 

Laura l Totally 

Robin l Well and I think it's the right question. I just think the emphasis is on is the wrong thing. Like, I think, you know, the way I talk about is like, you can look at your partner and go, Well, what are we going to do now?  Or you can look at your partner, go, what are we going to do now? Now, what are we going to do? You know. And that's about having a kind of a goal orientation, because otherwise you're just like, well, which way is the wind blowing? I wonder if there's, you know so that's, that's the way I think about chasing things or chasing goals,

Laura l Yeah. And you think about it actually a little different from how I think about it, as far as a principle, while I think it is obviously very important for the couple to have a shared goal and a shared vision and a shared mission and a shared we ness of like, what are we all about? I also, and this is like, I would say my fundamental when people say, what is your mission? What does marriage mean to you? What does it mean to be partnered to your husband? This just comes out immediately. I was like, my purpose as my husband's wife is to honor his life, dream and mission and his purpose on this planet, whatever it might be. And I don't want this to sound, well, no, I mean, I want it to sound exactly the how I'm saying it in that I believe that when, when I said, I do with my husband, I was signing up to be his best advocate, to clear the way and path for him to live his best life. And his version of his best life is going to be different from my version. My life purpose is going to be different from his life purpose and mission. But what I do not want to do is stand in the way of him living his best life, whatever that might look like. So if he wants to be an entrepreneur and he wants to golf all the time, which is what he wants to do, I'm going to try and figure out, how can I get on board and how can I support him living his best life. So for me, thinking about supporting dreams, it's supporting my husband's dream and getting on board with his dream. Yes, I want for us to have our dreams together, because that's what unifies us and brings us together. But I also want to make sure that he never feels like I am a barrier to him living his best life, that he always feels like I'm his biggest cheerleader and I'm I'm clearing the path and allocating any resources that he needs to live his best life. Obviously I am assuming that he is doing the same for me. That is not just one sided it's not just about me serving his mission. It's about him holding space for my my purpose and vision of my best life as well, and it's a very mutual understanding of support. 

Zach l Yeah, I was going to say, like, I want to stand up for you and for Ryan, because I know that's true of the two of you, and it's not a once. It's not her job to make sure that his dreams get accomplished. It's 

Laura l That's why I was late 

Zach l To make sure each other dreams are accomplished. And you both have that, that commitment, I know, inside your relationship. It's funny, I you, nobody asked me, and it's okay, but I was thinking about like, what do I think my version of what you said is? And I think it's, I think my purpose when it comes to marriage is, and I've come into this in the last half the last decade or so, is to be the best version of myself, the healthiest, sanest, most relationally grounded version of myself, in order to pull out the best version of herself, her the sanest, healthiest, most relationally grounded version of her, like, that's, that's, think, how I would, would say, like, what's my purpose in a relationship, which is weird, because it definitely starts with this whole, like, put your own oxygen mask on first thing. But I've actually come to believe that that's, that's a selfless thing to do. It's not a selfish thing to do. It's a selfless thing to do is to make sure that you're healthy enough to show up for somebody else. 

Laura l Yeah, 

Robin l It's brought up a lot. I'm thinking, like, I'm gonna have to talk to Hector  about this tonight. I know, like, we were very like, when we first, first for dating, and it was something that I was like, okay, what do I want in this, hopefully my last, you know, life partnership, and it's like, I want a container that where we can both, like, be our best selves and grow. I mean, really, it's like, like this, like this, nurturing, healthy, loving, fun. I mean, the joy part is massive for me. I have to have joy because life's freaking hard, yeah, but also a place where we can nurture each other, and so that we can, we can actually grow, because I think that's that's I want to grow in this lifetime. 

Laura l Yeah. My buddy has a quote. He says, marriages are people growing machines. And I love that, because it really that is what it should be. It should be a place where you grow in your relationship and as an individual and then grow the people around you having the impact of being able to grow others as well.

Robin l So before we end, I just want to go through one other part of your workbook that I thought was excellent, and it's like, cool. You know, if you are in the rut and you're like, what are we going to where do we start? One of the exercises you walk people through is revisiting their love story, like going back. Because, because, like, I imagine people come into your office and they're like, they don't even look at each other. They're like, this is not good. We're not in a good place. So, like, how do you even start? And maybe that's where you start in the workbook. Like, you don't have to go from eight, like, you don't have to start at page one and go to, like, 

Laura l Right 

Robin l 220, yeah, okay, no, yeah, 54, and revisit your love story. That might be the place where you start. And why did you, why did you put that in there? Like, why tell me?

Zach l Well, there's a couple things I think. I think when I spoke a little bit earlier about Dr Gottman's research, one of the divorce predictors is how a couple tells their story, and if they tell their story, and the story is full of resentments and problems and traumas and obstacles, that tends to be how they will tell their story going forward. It tends to be indicative of their perspective and that and that predicts, or that influences the whether or not the relationship is sustainable. If you can look back at your story though and talk about how you overcame trauma, or how you grew closer because of obstacles, or how you what you learned as a result of challenges, that also tends to be indicative of the way that people will position themselves going forward in a relationship. So those couples that come in and they're telling stories, and they're like, can't look at each other, and their their story is full of, you know, blame or outbound stuff like it really does, I will say to them in the room, I'll go, Hey, by the way, this is a problem like the way that you are reflecting on your history, history is going to make it hard for you to anticipate anything that looks like hopefulness. And so we try to actually retrain people to look back at their story and pull out the parts that actually are lovely and good and remarkable. I mean, we we see what we're looking for. And if we are scanning, like Laura said with shit colored glasses, we will see the shit. If we're scanning, though, for love, for charity and for generosity and for gratitude, we'll see that too. And so part of it is going back and scanning and inviting people to shift their mindset toward not simply how hard things have been, but how well, how did you overcome the hard thing, and then that that gives people opportunity to kind of reframe the hard moment they're currently in, and whether or not they're they can count on their own resilience to to set a new path.

Laura l Good point. I also I love to hear couples when they're having a hard time being in love with each other in the moment. I love to have them tell their love story of what was it about the other person that drew you in? And I phrase it in the sense of you made a choice to commit to this person. There was something about, I met you one time, and then we decided to continue hanging out. And then we made another date, and then we decided to make love. Like, how did you make those decisions? What was it about the other person that drew you in? And when they start, well, you kind of see, like their eyes sort of roll up and they start thinking, like, what was it? It was like, Man, you just you had the hottest legs. That's the story my husband tells. He's like, I had my pick of any server in this restaurant. He was the bartender, and he said, You just had the hottest legs. And so I picked you to get together. And I was like, Well, how lucky that I happen to be, you know, a fitness Queen back then. So it's kind of fun to recall,

Zach l I will trick, I trick couples regularly to get them to pull out the sound that I want and that they want. So, like, in your story, Laura, I might say something like, for real, like, did you have hot legs? And you might go, I sure did. And I go, how did, like, what was that about, you know? And you're like, oh, I used to work out all the time. And I said, and Ryan, you just like, worked at this bar and and they forget that they're talking about their relationship. And then eventually I'll go, you hear that sound right there, of like nostalgia and of like enjoyment and of like what it evoked in you. That's what we're chasing, you know, because you can just, you can, if you respond to somebody's story enthusiastically. They will tell it enthusiastically, and then when they start to tell it enthusiastically, you go, that that right there. That's what we want. You know,

Laura l We actually trick them in the book too. There's these primer extra we do. There's these primer exercises, because it's hard sometimes for people to dip into nostalgia without being triggered first. And so some of the primer things that we do is like, what were the songs that were really popular when you first started 

Robin l your playlist and you say, yes,

Laura l Put together a playlist and listen to those songs and allow those memories to come over you. Other things like, what was the style back then? Like, think about, what are the clothing that you were wearing? You know, 15, 20,40, years ago, when you first started dating. I remember my husband wearing the most disgusting, ripped up jeans, and I was so unattracted to him

Zach l Which now cost $300 that, yeah, you know

Robin l Right the trends come full circle,

Laura l Yeah But. It's fun, because sometimes we need to access memory through scent, through smells, or scent, you know, through listening to things. But that's how we kind of trick folks into taking a little walk down memory lane. 

Robin l I think I really liked how Zach said, you're scanning, you're you're actually helping people to look for the good. Yes, when we, when we are looking for that like, we are gonna like, that's like, human nature, we're going to see more of it

Zach l Well. And here's the reality too, is this is, this comes straight out of Dr Gottman's research, which is that scanning and viewing the world through rose colored glasses is actually more accurate. Your vision is more accurate when you're looking for the positive. And there's a there's a specific part of the research that affirms this. But basically, when you have your negative sentiment on or your negative glasses on, you miss stuff. You miss the good stuff that's around you, you know? And so the reality is that stuff is there. So when you're looking through the wrong when you're looking through shit colored glasses, you're missing reality, versus when you're looking through rose colored glasses or through a positive lens, you actually see more of what is actually present. And I'm not strictly talking about the weather or, you know, the the painting or something that you're looking at. I'm literally talking about the relationship, because that's something that we learn, which is that people who are in a negative state of mind, they're they're distorting reality,

Laura l yeah, yeah, which is cool, because, you know, sometimes people think of therapies being like, Oh, I'm gonna have to change everything about myself, and I'm gonna have to, like, do all this heavy lifting. For some couples, it's just about shifting the perspective. And once you shift the perspective, you'll see that the good was always there all along. You just didn't have access to it because you had the wrong glasses on. So that's kind of nice. That's where a book can come in handy. You don't have to go to therapy, you can pick up a book. Have great conversation with your couple to shift the perspective.

Robin l Yeah. Well, this has just been, I just love talking to both of you, it's, what a joy. And I love your podcast. I hope everybody picks up your book and puts it in the middle console in the car, yeah, or on the coffee table. Like, I just think, this is, this is something, once it's it's there, it's like, this can be something you want to flip back over and over and over again. I'm gonna, I'll do it with Hector.

Laura l Oh. What a lucky guy. 

Zach l There you go. Lucky guy, 

Robin l We already do this thing on a regular basis, so kind of have these prompts to it's fun. You got to keep it going, right? 

Laura l Yeah,

Zach l That's awesome. 

Robin l Well, I'm gonna, I always close our podcast with a blessing, and it's based on the work of the experts that we work with. So this is from you, from you two.. So may we make having meaningful conversations with our partners a priority. Meaningful conversations are the lifeblood of any long, lasting relationship. May we take a moment to appreciate the efforts made to strengthen our relationships and celebrate the courage it takes to engage in difficult conversations, and may we remain genuine, genuinely curious of our partners thoughts and feelings and have the conversations to reflect this. This is the key way to having a relationship full of desire and deep intimacy.

Laura l So so smart those two that wrote that, 

Robin l Thank you. 

Laura l Sounds so good coming Robin

Zach l Can I write that down? Can you write that down for me,

Robin l it's just I pulled it out of your chapter. So there you go.

Zach l Oh I wrote that. We wrote that.

Robin l Thank you both. So very much. 

Laura l Thank you. 

Zach l No thanks you been it's been really fun. 

Robin l So fun.