Dr. Frank Anderson - Trauma Healing

In this episode of Let's Talk Love, Robin is joined by world-renowned trauma expert Dr. Frank Anderson to explore society’s growing awareness of trauma and the path to healing. Dr. Anderson shares insights from his memoir, To Be Loved, reflecting on his personal journey and the power of storytelling in trauma recovery. Together, they discuss the complexities of therapy, real-life applications of therapeutic insights, and the dynamics of trauma bonding within families. Dr. Anderson helps us understand trauma responses, the four T’s of trauma healing, and the transformative nature of the healing process. Emphasizing forgiveness as a personal choice and the necessity of reclaiming one’s power, this conversation illuminates the journey of self-awareness, self-love, and the collective effort essential for healing.

Takeaways:

• Trauma awareness has significantly increased in recent years.
• Storytelling can be a powerful tool for healing.
• Healing often occurs outside of traditional therapy settings.
• Trauma bonding can complicate family dynamics.
• Thanking our trauma responses can change our internal world.
• The four T's of trauma healing are essential for recovery.
• Healing can happen through sharing experiences.
• Forgiveness is a personal choice, not an obligation.
• Ignoring our wisdom often keeps us connected to unhealthy relationships.
• Transforming trauma involves corrective experiences.
• Taking back your power is crucial after trauma.
• Healing is a lifelong journey, not a destination.

We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Links:

To Be Loved https://tr.ee/ZtpAr5plNR

https://www.traumainstitute.com/

https://www.frankandersonmd.com/

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Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Hello, my friends, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk. Love. I'm so excited to be joined by our guest, Dr Frank Anderson. Dr Frank is a trauma expert, and you know there is so much I would say. I know you would agree with me Dr Frank, around the fact that there is this collective consciousness, there is so much discussion and awareness and talk and education around around trauma. And you've been doing this work for decades. You are Harvard educated. You're, I mean, you're a doctor of your psychiatry, and you work with people around trauma, you've got an institute that you've developed, and you're but I would just say in the last, I don't know, in my thinking, it's like last five, five years, six, seven years, that the trauma talk is so big in our world

Dr. Frank Anderson l Yes

Robin Ducharme | And so I'm just excited to have this discussion with you today, and thank you for joining us. on on, Let's Talk. Love. Dr, Frank Anderson,

Dr. Frank Anderson l You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I do, you know, I want to say something right off the bat around this. It's an interesting thing around the awareness that you're talking about, you know, in that within the last five or so years, like, oh, by the way, the whole world was traumatized. Like, it really does help awareness. 

Robin Ducharme | Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Frank Anderson l Right.

Robin l Of course.

Dr. Frank l It helps.

Robin l COVID. Are you kidding me, right now, through the whole world was shut you think about that.

Dr. Frank l Yeah. So, so there that awareness is somewhat related to that. Because, you know, people say, does everybody have a trauma history? I'm like, Well, if you live through COVID, yes, we do, right? So there is this growing awareness, 

Robin l Wow

Dr. Frank l Which is super important. And you know, I was watching the way the waves and the webs and the flows, and people got numb and dissociated, they got freaked out and hyper aroused, like all the stuff, you know, and we haven't really recovered from it, and we don't know how to be in the world people, you know, we learned how to quarantine. We didn't learn how to come out of a trauma. And people have really, you know, people are struggling with that, in my opinion. And there is this paradox. So there were trauma awareness is much more prevalent in our culture and society, and there's still an allergy out in the general public. Like, that's not me. That didn't happen to me. Those are for weak people. Like, it's really interesting, because I have this production company now bringing trauma stories to the general public, you know. And what we're finding, which is fascinating, I wouldn't have known this is like, there's many shows, The Bear for people who have watched The Bear.

Robin l Oh my, my boyfriend and I love that show

Dr. Frank l Right? Ted.

Robin l Oh yeah.

Dr. Frank l Ted Lasso for kids. Stranger Things, these are all trauma shows. They're all about trauma. But the word trauma is never mentioned. The word trauma is never mentioned, so i

Robin l It's misunderstood. 

Dr. Frank l Yes, people have this fascination with it, but also this allergy. Yes, it exists. You know, I think the Me TooMovement, Black Lives Matter, both of those things also brought trauma awareness to the general public. You know, seeing that on TV and seeing it through social media. So, yes, you're right. Awareness is much greater, you know. And I want to be a part of that. And there's still this vulnerability to acknowledging and admitting that you have it, that people are struggling with. And you know, it's part of why I wrote this memoir. Is like, okay, like, here you go, here it is. Like, it's oh, even that, even the quote trauma expert, has a trauma history. Let me tell you all about it. I really want to normalize that experience, because so everybody I know has had some form of overwhelming experience. I don't know anybody who hasn't had

Robin l We've all, we've all had it, you know? So this was, um, you talk about this at the beginning of your book. So your book that you're, you're speaking of, is called ToBe Loved, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l And it is a memoir, right? 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l So you've written, you've already, you've already written your two times best selling author of two books already on trauma. And this one was like, did you not say it was like, your colleagues were like, listen, Frank, you gotta write it all right. It's like you have to tell the story of how you actually became a trauma expert and why you actually got into this field because it really is when you when you talk, when you tell your story, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l This is the reason that you're on this life's path, 

Dr. Frank l 100 percent 

Robin l Because you've lived through like you lived through a childhood of trauma

Dr. Frank l Yes, that's exactly right. 

Robin l The story that you this and your vulnerability and what you shared, it's, it's beautiful, really, and that and how powerful it is to share our story so that we can learn from each other and heal through that. 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l So this, so can you tell us, please, like, give a synopsis of, like, why you wrote your book, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l And yes, please.

Dr. Frank l Yeah. It was one of those. I was kind of surprised, like I never even really thought of myself as an author, which is kind of strange, having written three books now and working on it

Robin l Because you're like, No, I'm a Doctor of psychiatry and I'm

Dr. Frank l I'm a good teacher like that. I know I'm a good teacher. 

Robin l You are a good teacher

Dr. Frank l I didn't think that I'd be teaching through writing, you know, through storytelling in that way. So when my publisher, right after Transcending Trauma, which was my second book, came out right after they're like, we think, you know, I thought they were going to have a call a meeting to see how well the book was doing, right? That's what I'm like, oh they like, let's have a meeting. I'm like, great, you know. And I thought it was going to be like a recap on the sales of the book. And they're like, we want you to write a memoir. And I was like, what like? What like, really? 

Robin l Really

Dr. Frank l Yeah, I was really surprised by that. They're like, look, Frank, you, you talk you through snippets of your personal experience in Transcending Trauma, we think you people would really be interested in hearing your story. And I was, I kind of didn't take me long to be like, yes, I want to do this, because there is this us and them. Like, I'm the expert, you're the patient. Like, dynamic I don't like, I really don't like that. So to even the playing field and to kind of talk about my trauma history, I thought was going to be a great offering for people, you know, and I have this purpose, I'll say, to bring trauma healing to the world. And it's not my purpose. It's a higher purpose. It's not mine.

Robin l Well, you see, it's your mission

Dr. Frank l It's my mission, it's my purpose.  

Robin l Yes it is

Dr. Frank l And I thought this would be a good way to do that. You know? What I was not expecting was how much healing it was for me to write 

Robin l Yourself. 

Dr. Frank l I did not I was like, this is for people. I I've been in therapy for 30 years. Like, I know my story. You know what I mean. So I 

Robin l Oh my gosh 

Dr. Frank l Expecting, I wasn't expecting the layers and levels of stuff that got put together and processed through the through writing a book. You know, I had this thought in my head writing all the time was like the moments that made me, the moments that made me, that kid kept showing up. 

Robin l Oh, wow

Dr. Frank l Moments that made me, the moments that made me, and I thought everybody has moments like we all have,

Robin l We all like. I could think about it right now Frank. I could think about like, those moments, 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l That I'm like, oh, remember that Robin like that is a mo like, we all have those that are so pivotal, okay, like, and they might like, I'm thinking about the sting and like,

Dr. Frank l Some of them, some of them are big, like, weddings and funerals and all that kind of 

Robin l Yeah but you know, actually, I think, I think, I think more of them are like, the ones that are like, the ones that you don't want to talk about that actually you have not shared. 

Dr. Frank l Let me, I'll tell you one such moment that got put together in writing this book. Like this was like, my god, I had no idea. So, like, when I was in medical school, I was doing a child psych rotation, and I was, we're doing a rotation on child psychiatry. I love children. I thought, Oh, my God, I'm going to be a child psychiatrist. This is perfect. And so I was in the rotation, and we took the kids out on the playground. I picked up this little girl and put her on the swing. She'slike, would you put me on the swing

Robin l Oh my gosh you tell this on your in your book. 

Dr. Frank l I'm like, we she's like, will you put pick me up and put me on the swing? I'm like, sure, honey. And I put on the swing. And then a week later, I get kicked out of the rotation. They're like, somebody's filed a complaint about you. You can't you have to be you're out of medical school until fertile further notice. Like, I was devastated by I was I was traumatized. And we can't tell you what it is like. We can't tell you because it's secret.

Robin l And you have no idea. You're like, Why the hell did I like? I didn't do anything wrong. You're going like, I've been like, a stellar student. I've been like, doing like, you're 

Dr. Frank l I had no idea. And then four weeks later, they come back and say, let's have a conversation. And they're like, hey, our bad, it was a total mistake. Like, our bad, like, hello, this traumatized the hell out of me. But they're like, this little girl whose mother was a trauma specialist, 

Robin l Right

Dr. Frank l Felt neglected by her mother, so she made up a story so that she can get her mother's attention, right

Robin l Right, that you were that you were acting inappropriately.

Dr. Frank l This man touched me inappropriately, right, because I picked her up and put it on the swing. So she was looking for love and attention from her mother, plain and simple, right? 

Robin l At your at your 

Dr. Frank l My career was almost over, like I almost lost my whole career, which was the way I was looking for love and attention, like I my whole life was 

Robin l Oh my gosh Frank

Dr. Frank l Smart. 

Robin l Oh

Dr. Frank l That's what it was like. Like I was like, Oh, my goodness, this girl and I have so much in common, even though she almost destroyed my career, we're both in search of love from our parents, and she does it one way, and I do it another way. And our paths crossed in that moment, and that was a moment that was one of those moments like and they're like, go back into your program and we're going to give you high honors, and don't worry about it. It's all fine. Like was, like I was. It took me a while to recover from that, but in writing the memoir that was one of those moments, I said, we all have so much more in common than we have differences, you know?  

Robin l Can I ask you…

Dr. Frank l And I still I could hate because she would she said this horrible light about me, I'm like,

Robin l No she was a six year old girl who you who lifted on to the swing

Dr. Frank l We had so much in common? 

Robin l No of course you did. Okay, so it was through. It was through writing the book, 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l And reflection. And that's where, that's where you actually put that connection together. 

Dr. Frank l Yes that's it. I never had that. There was so many moments like that that I put together through writing that book. I was like, Oh, wow. Because, you know, writing is different than talking. You can't write as quickly as you think. So it forces you to slow down.

Robin l Oh, yeah.

Dr. Frank l And to be with things differently. So it was very therapeutic for me. And I'll tell you this, I'll say one other thing about it. In all the my years of therapy, I never had the moments of healing with my father, as I did towards the end of his life, while I was writing the book. So I was writing the book in real time. So the last four chapters of the book were written real time. So things would happen, I'd write it, things would it was an incredible experience. So even on my therapy, it didn't kind of bring me to the same place as my life did while I was kind of writing this memoir, and my dad was failing. You know, it was so powerful, the healing that happened towards the end of his life. No, none of the therapy in the world could have done what those moments together between him and I did. 

Robin l Oh well of course not. And I think, well, I say, of course not. But the reason I say that, Frank is, because what you are teaching us and is that there's this, there's this, I think there's this misunderstanding around therapy, 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l That you're going to go into this therapist office and you're going to be healed. You're going to learn from the expert, you're going to you're going to somehow absorb, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l The healing and walk out healed. 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l That's not what happens. 

Dr. Frank l No.

Robin l Right? 

Dr. Frank l No, no no

Robin l What I know from my own experience and what you are, what you are doing as a therapist and also teaching and writing about and sharing, is that you are given tools, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l So that when you're in your own life, it's like, Okay, I am. I'm gonna act this way with what I've learned. I'm gonna act differently this time. 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l I'm going to really embody the learning that is that is very different, like you're not gonna you're not absorbing some healing. That's not the way that work. It's not the way life works. 

Dr. Frank l No there's a release. Here's the way I think about it. There's a release of what we're carrying. There's, there is the work of releasing the trauma energy. So trauma is energy, and we carry it, right. And so there is a process of releasing that energy, 

Robin l Okay, yeah, and yep. 

Dr. Frank l And that is not the end of the story. Then, then there is a showing up in your life differently, and what have, what I call corrective experiences, like, I'm going to do this differently. I'm going to speak up differently. I am not going to be passive this time, you know? So it's, it is what happens in therapy that's important. And it doesn't end there. It's like prepares you to show up differently in life. That's one of the things that I'm working on, is having people do episodic therapy, treatment, do five sessions. Do 10 sessions, then live your life and work it until you've mastered it, and then go, 

Robin l Oh my gosh, I love that

Dr. Frank l Right? 

Robin l Work it

Dr. Frank l And do a second piece of work. Because what ends up happening is sometimes people slip into therapy and just like you said, Robin, like, oh. So you're going to give me all the answers. That's what we do when we when we're in a marriage or something within partner, you're with a partner, you're going to heal me. You're going to give me everything I needed, right? No, that doesn't happen either. Doesn't happen. It's like I'm going to live life differently with what I've learned in this experience. And so I really believe people need real life experiences, you know, and I anger like being I mentioned this briefly in the Instagram a little bit like being with angry men has been very hard for me my whole life, because of my history with my father and and to truly show up differently when a man is angry in my life, even in all the therapy I've done is still challenging. 

Robin l Of course, it is 

Dr. Frank l Better at it 

Robin l Can you, can you give us, can you, can you share that, please? Frank, okay, I want to, like, let's just talk about this in real time, right? You've had, you've experienced with your like, you grew up with a dad who was completely volatile. 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l He would come home from, you know, he was a, he was a pharmacist, and running his running his pharmacy, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l Like, 17, 18, hours a day. 

Dr. Frank l Yes, totally

Robin l Right. You would leave in the morning before you woke up, and come home at night and then you have a martini

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l Like, try to, you know, you're in bed with your brother, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah. 

Robin l And there were just so much you shared, so much. Like, I just 

Dr. Frank l That was another moment. Like, because we my brother and me, my brother and I used to scream, right? 

Robin l Can we talk about this Frank, can we? Can we? So this is what I get. I really want to bring this up. I don't think people understand what trauma bonding means. 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l This is what you were. This is what you and your brother. Not just you. You and your brother were doing when your dad would come home from the pharmacy and he was exhausted and he was having a drink to whatever his habit was, to decompress and be like, oh, that was a long freaking day. 

Dr. Frank l We were 

Robin l You hadn't seen your dad because you're like, we never see him, but we love him, and he's our dad, 

Dr. Frank l Right

Robin l So then you would act up

Dr. Frank l Yes 

Robin l In order to get his attention, and you're like, so you would be negative, like, this is, can you please educate us on what that means 

Dr. Frank l We used to we would have, it was a game. We have this game, and we'd be screaming and yelling, and he'd yell, shut up, you, sons of bitches, you know he 

Robin l Yeah

Dr. Frank l One more word, and I'm gonna come up there and give you something to scream about. We look at

Robin l And I understand that like I could hear, I could see, I could hear my parents saying that to me sometimes when I was little saying, rascals. Like, I wouldn't give you something to scream about. Yeah

Dr. Frank l And we'd look at each other literally and be like, okay, it's go time. Like, how crazy is that? Like, 

Robin l Yeah

Dr. Frank l Negative that was one of the things. I think negative attention is better than no attention at all, negative attention. And so here we did. We're like, we screamed again. We knew he'd come up. He came up to the room, flew open, the door, ripped off, we we put like, layers of covers. We're like, he's not gonna get us. He won't hurt us. Like, we put like, five or six blankets, and we tucked them in under the mattress, thinking as kids, like, oh, we protected ourselves. And like, with one swoop, he rips off all the covers and smacks us, you know, 

Robin l Yeah, gives you a spacking

Dr. Frank l Hits me and hits my brother, and then he leaves, and we were kind of like, mission accomplished.

Robin l It worked. 

Dr. Frank l It worked in that way, like this is what people don't understand. Why would you be in abusive relationship when like, tension is better than neglect.

Robin l Oh my goodness, even, oh my goodness, right? Like, Frank, like, I just, oh wow

Dr. Frank l That's right.

Robin l So can we this is, I really would like to go through the four things that you are helping and and teaching us around healing trauma. Okay, y

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l So what are they, and how do we do it? 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l We all have stuff. This is what we're talking about. We're talking about the fact that, and obviously, like, there's, there's some of us that have, like, so much more,

Dr. Frank l Yep, yep. 

Robin l And I pray to God that those listeners that are on this call or listening can access, like, professional help if you need it and can, you know, and this is what you're doing. Frank, Yeah, but how can we, if we, like, or just, how do we do it on our own? Like, what? What are the steps?

Dr. Frank l Yeah. So I have a kind of COVID, the 4T's to trauma healing. And I'm kind of creating, I'm training a workbook. I'm creating a new textbook to get to go in depth around this subject, so that people can understand how to kind of do a program for themselves and then get help as they need it, right. But first is thank your trauma responses like people don't understand that their behavior

Robin l You're saying thank.

Dr. Frank l Thank your trauma responses, because they're there to protect you, right? People don't understand that drinking, cutting, suicidality, depression, panic, yelling to your kids having an affair, binging and purging are all protective responses. They are trying to keep the pain away inside. That's their best attempt at keeping pain away so we don't hate our responses. We appreciate them for what they're trying to do. This opens the door, and it changes your internal world. Instead of being critical and self loathing, you start being appreciative, then these parts are willing to work with you. They're much more amenable to cooperate and be collaborative. Next is

Robin l How do you, how do you, how do you, how do you think those parts? 

Dr. Frank l Yeah, it's, 

Robin l You're like, it's awareness. You're like, going like

Dr. Frank l It's the curiosity like, oh, so drinking is really there, you ask, what? What's your role? You ask the part that drinks, you know, like, why are you doing this? Why is it important? Because if we didn't drink, we'd be suicidal, or because if we didn't drink, you might hear we'd feel how alone and miserable we really are. Drinking gets us away from feeling lonely. Oh, thank you so much. I get it. You know you have to understand the intention, so you ask the part that's drinking or cutting or suicidal, instead of trying to get rid of it, move toward it and get curious. Then you need to act. You need to be aware Have awareness that you know you know what's right. You have intuition. You have wisdom. So I say, connect to the your truth and wisdom. You'll have the truth inside of you. That truth has been disconnected because of trauma. We lose connection to our instincts and our intuition for survival, like as a kid I did, I had to disconnect with what I knew my parents were doing wrong, and I had to connect, attached to them for survival, because I needed them for survival. So, 

Robin l Yeah

Dr. Frank l We disconnect from our intuition in the service of survival. So the second is trust re trust your wisdom, your intuition. People know what's right, kids know what's right, even if they don't act that way. So connect to your own wisdom, not listening to somebody else's or relying on something else. 

Robin l I think that we touched on this earlier Frank around the you know, we've got our therapists, we've got our teachers, we've got our mentors, we've got people that we are like, you know, turning to for the right advice, the guru. It's like, no, 

Dr. Frank l No. Here's, I deal

Robin l As adults, as it's like you said, like, as even just as people, we have the wisdom inside of us, 

Dr. Frank l We have it yeah

Robin l And no, you don't need, you don't need to look outside yourself for the for the actually, the answer 

Dr. Frank l That's right, that's right

Robin l Well, that's and that's and that right in itself, is 

Dr. Frank l Huge

Robin l Takes, takes practice and takes like, but it's like, actually, we know the right answer,

Dr. Frank l Yes. You know how many times I've worked with people who are like, ending a marriage, and they'll say stuff like was walking down the aisle in my dress, and I knew this was a mistake, but I did it anyway, or I saw how disconnected my wife was my fiance was at the time, I knew she didn't have the capacity to truly love me, but I married her anyways. Like, we have wisdom. 

Robin l Like, Frank, you tell this story about when you were married to your wife, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l Before my 

Dr. Frank l Totally

Robin l Right,

Dr. Frank l Totally 

Robin l Hello. Like, and I think the same thing my second marriage, it was a total, like, I knew from like, there was so many red flags beyond, and I'm like, but I still went through with it. I mean, am I surprised that I did it with a second divorce? What the hell come on? Exactly. This is like, what you what we do to ignore our wisdom.

Dr. Frank l We ignore our wisdom to keep an external connection. 

Robin l Oh, yeah

Dr. Frank l We ignore our wisdom to keep the like the connection is more important than our truth, and that connection

Robin l The connection is more important than our truth, and that's and that is something that Gabor Mate talks about when he teaches is like authenticity versus attachment, and how we are very, very afflicted by that. 

Dr. Frank l Yeah transforming the trauma. Then there's the fourth t, is transforming your trauma and the process of transformation, and most people don't know there is real healing that can happen like real healing can happen. I said it's not permanent, but you can release the trauma energy. And in order to release the trauma energy, we need to the part that holds the trauma needs to share its experience now that could be internally through meditation, that can be with a therapist, or that can be with an intimate partner, and sharing the experience is not sharing the story, it's sharing the thoughts, the feelings and the physical sensations around the trauma. So it's

Robin l Can you please repeat that Frank, the part that holds part the trauma,

Dr. Frank l Trauma needs to share it first with someone before it can heal. It needs to not be the only holder of the information. 

Robin l Okay

Dr. Frank l It's like, you know it now, so I'm not the only one that holds it, whether it shares it with the adult view, whether it shares it with a therapist, whether it's somebody you know. So it's got to be shared and not just the story, the whole experience you know, then there needs to be a corrective experience. The part that holds the trauma needs to feel the opposite of the trauma. For example, I'm unlovable. It needs to feel loved. I'm worthless. It needs to feel worthy. I don't matter. It needs to feel like it's matter. It means,

Robin l Can you give us like a can you give us an example, please? 

Dr. Frank l Yeah, sure. 

Robin l Um, yeah,

Dr. Frank l You know. I mean, I can tell you, is what I was working on recently with these kind of angry men in my life. I was like, I, I what was in common, I told you, is they all adored me in the beginning of our relationship, right? They all had this adoration for me. And I was like, you know, I don't need, I don't need adoration from outside people I love you, meaning the little me, little Frankie. I love myself like I don't need that from elsewhere, because the healing has occurred. And it's true, it's not arrogant. It's like I love myself. I'm actually worth it, like I deserve. I never felt this way before. I never

Robin l And what and what is adoration anyways, Frank, it's like, it's, it's about, is that authentic? Is it real?

Dr. Frank l They can be in association with me if they give me all these great compliments, because then it's like, oh my god, I'm in, I'm connected to Frank Anderson. You know what I mean? 

Robin l You don't need to be adored. It's just like, oh, I should love who you are. Like, that's that's the truth, right? Like, that's

Dr. Frank l That's the healing. I used to need to be adored outside because I didn't feel it inside. So I was searching for it, you know what I mean? And I'm not searching for it anymore. It's like, look, I do love myself. I am worth it, and if you don't like me like it's okay, it's your that's your issue. You don't have to like me. I like me now so that corrective experience where the part of me that felt unloved, it's the whole reason of to be loved, feels loved now. It feels love that you little Frankie inside feels worth it and valued in love because of the corrective experiences that he's had with me in my healing journey. So there's a corrective experience that needs to happen. Then release is possible, then the trauma energy can be released, because trauma energy is not ours. It's what we absorbed. So once you share the story, and then you have a corrective experience, you can release that energy that isn't yours in the first place. You know.

Oh my goodness I think  that right there. I think is, woah, I think that's such a huge understanding, yeah? Well, I was talking to my best friend, Kirsten. She works with real love ready, and we work on our podcast together. And we were talking about your book all week, and we're like, what'd you think about this? What'd you think about that? Like, thank goodness I've got, like, somebody to talk to.

Yeah

Robin l Our learnings, right.

Dr. Frank l Yep.

Robin l And what did we take away from your book. And we were talking about forgiveness, this is a heavy one.

Dr. Frank l This is the last T is take back your power, like once you've released your trauma energy, then it's take back your power and choose to forgive the person who harmed you or not. Like forgiveness is a choice, right? But if you choose it, not you're forced to do it, because so much of culture and society forces forgiveness prematurely,

Robin l Or, like, religiously. We were talking about like,

Dr. Frank l Totally, totally 

Robin l I was raised Catholic, and it's just like, that's right, Jesus is on the cross. I mean, Robin, if Jesus could do it, you could do it. Yeah, no. Come on.

Dr. Frank l Right? Exactly, exactly. We hear it so often, and this is more like forgiveness is actually for you, not for the person you're forgiving, that you release the energy you're carrying about what they did to you. You're

Robin l So frank? Let's talk about this. Okay.

Dr. Frank l Yes 

Robin l I really, because, like, with Kirsten and I, we really went into this. We're like, okay, what about this example? What about this? Like, you know, it doesn't because people have been, I mean, hello. Like, you can think about the atrocities that other human being can inflict. Your dad. Your dad beat you. Okay? Your parents sent you off to conversion therapy from a very young age, like they thought they they knew that you were gay

Dr. Frank l Right 100 percent

Robin l You didn't know 

Dr. Frank l Right 

Robin l But right from a very conscious point of view, you didn't know as a little boy, but they were like,

Dr. Frank l Not at all

Robin l Oh, he's showing all the signs that he might be so, yeah, I'm off to therapy every week 

Dr. Frank l Exactly 

Robin l To try to fix him

Dr. Frank l Right

Robin l You think about all the things that happen to human beings, and you're like

Dr. Frank l Here's the thing, I carried anger and resentment for years. 

Robin l Yeah, I know 

Dr. Frank l That that was hurting me.

Robin l Yes

Dr. Frank l Forgiveness was not letting them off the hook. 

Robin l No 

Dr. Frank l Forgiveness. 

Robin l You're not condoning

Dr. Frank l Forgiveness or condoning no forgiveness was I'm no longer carrying this energy about you. It was freedom. It was freedom for me. And you know what was shocking. Because when I when I really experienced forgiveness. I started loving my father.

Robin l Yes, you talk about this because your dad was in end stages of his life, yes. And I said you were, you were taking care of him and and he did actually change his behavior towards you, and he was right, like it was a beautiful end

Dr. Frank l Yes yeah, to his like, a Hollywood ending, but it was actually my life. I was such a gift. 

Robin l Yeah

Dr. Frank l It was such a gift to have that. So I was freed of all the stuff. I was freed of my trauma because I've done a lot of my own work. Then I was freed of all the feelings I had toward him, which was a bonus. Do you know what I mean, I was not expecting that. 

Robin l No

Dr. Frank l It's huge. It was huge. And so people think, like, you know, in the 12 step program, you're supposed to ask for forgiveness. Like, I'm not a big fan of that. Will you forgive me? No, I don't believe in that. I'm like, I'm gonna forgive you so that I don't carry anything about what you did to me.

Robin l So I just want to say, I want to talk about this FrankBecause, like, honestly, you're the psychiatrist, you're the psychotherapist. I need some help.So what if, and I know there's listeners here, they're in the same boat. 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l What if you're in relationship with somebody that is continually still hurting you? 

Dr. Frank l Yes

Robin l Okay, I'm no longer married to this man, but it's like, trust me, it's still happening. It's like, the 

Dr. Frank l Forgivenes

Robin l Behavior is still prevalent. It's like, and I'm like, what am I forgiving? It's like, No, and I because I do. Because, trust me, I'm, I'm a forgiver, like I'm a loving human being. And I'm going, like, I actually feel like, I feel like forgiveness in like there is, there's a readiness, but not only that, a willingness. I get it. And I've been praying about this too, because I'm a very like, 

Dr. Frank l You got it

Robin l I've got it. 

Dr. Frank l So here's what I'll say about that.

Robin l I'm not I'm not there yet. And it's like

Dr. Frank l When you're so 

Robin l It's protection 

Dr. Frank l Being abused. That's right, protection when you're actively in a difficult situation, it's not safe to forgive because you're still in some ways attached to this person. Okay, 

Robin l Yes, and probably maybe for

Dr. Frank l Vulnerable, 

Robin l Yeah

Dr. Frank l It makes you too vulnerable. So there, I'm not saying everybody has to forgive to heal trauma. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, if you are in a place like I remember when it was I remember when I stood up to my father for the first time in my life. I was downtown in Chicago when I was in medical school, and he was back in Oakland, and I stood up to him. I'm like, I'm not coming home and working for the summer, and I'm gonna get me. I wanted

Robin l He wanted you to clean all the liquor bottles.

Dr. Frank l I'm in medical school. I'm not cleaning liquor bottles anymore. Like, hire a 16 year old to do that like, not me, and it was first time I said no, and he was enraged. But I had a level of independence. I wasn't living at home where I was going to get beaten in that moment. I'm like, I can get in a car and drive away. You are far away from me. You can't hurt me. I can support myself. I don't even need your money, you know. So you have to have a level of safety in order to be able to forgive if you're still beholden in a way that is abusive and traumatic. Forgiveness may not be the right answer at that point, you know. 

Robin l But the fourth step is releasing 

Dr. Frank l Take back your power after you were 

Robin l Taking back your power, 

Dr. Frank l It's taking back your power, and you live in the world differently. You make choices. 

Robin l Oh, I know that I'm in my power, yeah, for sure. 

Dr. Frank l See, like that. It's like, and you know that that's that, and that's the living life differently, thing that a lot of psychotherapy does not talk about. It's like, heal your trauma. Good. You're good to go. It's like, No, you actually have to start living differently, you know? And you need it's very difficult to do that. I'm still doing it.

Robin l We it's a life long, 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l Journey we are not going to be healed 100% 

Dr. Frank l Yeah I don't want people to get too hung up on the forgiveness thing. I want to go back to it for a second. Like, if it doesn't feel right to you, some people will say that sexual violation, like, I will never forgive that person. I'm like, Well, okay, that's fine.

Robin l Exactly because that person, yeah, did like and they're a violator of, like, all things sacred, and it's just like, F no

Dr. Frank l It's okay. The thing that I say is there was this freedom for me to no longer be tethered to this person, because I let go of the feelings I had towards that him, what his feelings were towards me. I don't even care. Like, that's not relevant for me. It's more like I'm no longer feeling this, you know

Robin l Right.

Dr. Frank l It was interesting. This one person that I've heard about recently that I was just like, you know, it's not good to have this person in my life. I don't that's not, it's not healthy for me. I just was kind of in my old way. I just was not responding like, I would be just like, not like, be silent instead of speaking up. That's my old way. It's like, if you're hurt, it's small. If you're hurt, become invisible, right? And so I saw myself doing some of that, and I was like, Frank, that's not okay if you don't want this person in your life in a loving way, you can say, I don't want this relationship anymore. And so I did, like, I was like, the right thing to because my old, my old way is just be invisible, 

Robin l Right

Dr. Frank l And I was like, That's the old way. You know. The new way is I don't need to be me. I can be kind, but I can be clear. It's like, look this, I need a break from this relationship. This is not working for me, and I wanted to let you know I wish you the best. So I stated it like I said, this is over for me, you know what I mean. And that was really important. And I if I did that as a kid, if I said that to my father, you would beat the shit out of you know what I mean, this person's not going to beat the shit out of me. They're not my father, but I also need to show up differently. And that was a that's a piece of what I really want to teach people. There is the therapy work and there's the life work. 

Robin l Yuppn abso, 100% I I've done so much therapy, and I'm showing up differently, and so so so many ways and life is a reflection of that I have. I have beautiful relationships with my friends. 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l I've got an amazing partnership now, like the man that I'm with is teaching me more things about myself than I can imagine, but I'm also I'm being different in this relationship than I was another, right? 

Dr. Frank l Yeah, that's so important

Robin l Like, your life is a reflection of your learning. 100 % different level.

Dr. Frank l 100% that's right, right? You attract where you're at. You attract where you're at.

Robin l So I I just, I love you. Frank Anderson, you're Awesome. Thank you so so much for being with us today. On let's talk love. And I just like, you're such a great teacher, and I loved your book To Be Loved. I hope everybody reads it because it was so raw and authentic. There's also so many lessons for all of us in it. And you're doing, you're doing tremendous work in the world. So I thank you so much for everything and your time today.

Dr. Frank l Thank you. And I really enjoyed our connection too. I really did. And thank you for what you're doing. Because you know, if we're going to make a difference in this world, it's going to be a collective it's not one person. So thank you for all that you're doing also. And I appreciate it.

Robin l It is a collective? It is a collective effort

Dr. Frank l It's a consciousness

Robin l That's for sure. 

Dr. Frank l Yeah

Robin l We're here for each other, right.

Dr. Frank l You got it.

Robin l Thank you. Dr. Frank Anderson

Dr. Frank l You're welcome.