Nathalia Christensen - Healing from Toxic Relationships

In this episode of Let’s Talk Love, Robin speaks with relationship coach Nathalia Christensen about the complexities of unhealthy relationships and the journey to healing. Nathalia shares her personal story of overcoming anxiety and finding her path as a coach. They discuss the signs of toxic and narcissistic behaviors.    This conversation emphasizes how important introspection and self-awareness is in building relationships based on mutual growth, love and respect.

Takeaways:

• Toxic relationships can manifest in various forms, not just romantic.
• Recognizing red flags early can prevent deeper emotional harm.
• Self-awareness is crucial in identifying unhealthy dynamics.
• Healing from toxic relationships requires time and self-reflection.
• People pleasing often stems from feeling unsafe in a relationship.
• Healthy relationships foster personal growth and self-esteem.
• Trusting your gut feeling is essential in relationship dynamics.
• Researching potential partners can help avoid toxic situations.
• Taking the time to get to know someone is vital for a healthy relationship.

We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Links:

Work with Nathalia: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSePd0dYrMWVknyZLXq1CtWa3yHETcuuQ6uCQOxfPJ1_w0H4XQ/viewform

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Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so excited to be joined by this beautiful human being, Nathalia Christiensen, Nathalia, thank you for being on our show today.

Nathalia Christensen l Thank you for having me, Robin. I'm so excited to speak to you.

Robin Ducharme | I'm always so excited to speak to you. We had just such a great conversation on our Instagram Live at the end of June. Here we are in October, already, 2024 can't believe fast time flies. But you know, Nathalia, I'm so glad that we connected then and now today, because you are just an excellent, you know, an excellent resource and teacher and coach, relationship coach for helping people navigate through unhealthy relationships and identify really what is toxic in a relationship, what dynamics are at play, and helping people hopefully get out of these unhealthy relationships and move into, you know, a place obviously having having healthier, better relationships. So that's really important. That's just this important work you're doing Nathalia

Nathalia Christensen l Thank you, Robin, yes, that is an accurate description.

Robin Ducharme | Tell us. I would just, I know you are a relationship coach. You're from Denmark. We just talked briefly before starting recording that you are living in Goa, India. I mean, I have heard so many amazing things about Goa. One day I'm going to go to India and I'll come see you, because I've heard amazing things about Goa in particular. Tell us about your about yourself, like how you became relationship coach and you're happily married now. And just like, maybe just like, just a little bit of introduction on how you started in this business and where you're at now,

Nathalia Christensen l Absolutely okay. Well, I started in this business by having a major life crisis, actually, and I think that's how a lot of people end up being interested in self development work, right? It's that we go through some kind of terrible experience. And so in my 20's, I was suffering from severe anxiety, and nothing helped. I went to one therapist after the other, and I did so many different kind of things, and it did nothing really worked. And then I started exploring meditation and more of it, alternative methods to kind of deal with this anxiety I was feeling, and I was realizing that this anxiety had been trying to teach me that I was not on the right path in my life. You know, I was not doing the right things. I had chosen my education and my job, not from the right place, you know, I was just doing what every everyone else wanted me to do. So I wasn't really happy, even though, on paper, I had a great life. I was living in Copenhagen and a lovely neighborhood. I had a great job in the media industry, I had a boyfriend, and, you know, on paper, everything looked great, but I just wasn't happy, and I was having this extreme anxiety that was completely debilitating for my life at the time. So something had to happen, right and so.

Robin l Your body was telling you, right? I mean, your mind, yep,

Nathalia l Physical, yes, anxiety. It's very physical. Actually, it's not just in the mind, it's physical symptoms 

Robin l Absolutely

Nathalia l I would get all over my face from the anxiety I would get, you know, and so I was just very unhealthy because of this, this anxiety. So I realized that I was not doing what was right for me. So I quit the job at the time. I was also a singer. Actually had a record deal with a Danish. Yeah, what's it called? Sorry again. I'm from Denmark. Sometimes I forget the words with it with a company I had a record deal with the company

Robin l Ok like a record label. I guess you could say,

Nathalia l Yeah, 

Robin l There you go.

Nathalia l Thank you, Robin. I quit that I ended the relationship I was in. I quit the apartment, and I went to Costa Rica, and I lived in the jungle for about a year, and in that year, I did a lot of soul searching. I know it sounds kind of cliche that, you know, I went to the jungle and found myself, but I really kind of did honestly. And when I

Robin l I think a lot of people will do that. I think it like, there's people are just like, I remember when I graduated with my degree, I was like, I'm going to backpack travel the world. And I said this to my parents. I remember saying, like, and I'll figure out what I'm going to do with my life after that. Like, while I'm on this journey, right? Like, I think people can resonate with that

Nathalia l Exactly, yeah, I love that, yeah, because it does put everything into perspective, the world is so much bigger than whatever town you're living in, city or even country you're living in, and just being close to nature and meditating a lot, and I was doing a lot of these healing modalities, and it really worked. And I don't have this anxiety anymore. I really don't. And. And so it also really healed my anxiety. And when I came back, I just couldn't go back to the same lifestyle that I had before. And so I had to ask myself, what, what would I want to spend my time doing? What would make me happy to do every day? And this is it, helping other people in these areas where I have expertise and basically showing up every day and doing my best to make sure that my clients and whoever watch my videos online just get some help and information.

Robin l I love it. I really think I, like I said before, I think this, the work that you're doing, is so important, and it's the reason why we're at Real Love Ready. That's what we're all about. It's like helping all of us cultivate good, beautiful, nourishing relationships in our lives. And what a difference that makes. And this isn't just for intimate partnerships. This. This can be, I was talking to my boyfriend last night about this. I'm like, this is, this could be familial. It could be like with a sibling, a parent, a co worker. You know, you could find yourself in these unhealthy dynamics with, really, with anybody, but really, it's like, it's really learning and gaining awareness around what, what, what that looks like, so that you can make those changes 

Nathalia l Exactly right. And, yeah, I'm gonna say that it's so true what you're saying, Robin, that it doesn't necessarily only apply to, you know, romantic relationships, toxic relationships, can come up in any constellation. It can even be your boss, your toxic boss, you know, any consolation in your life. So it's really important to educate ourselves on this topic. I think.

Robin l Yeah I wanted to just go back to what you were saying around anxiety, because I was in a very unhealthy marriage, which I'm out of now. Thank God. Thank the good Lord, really, and I was experiencing a lot of anxiety. And I'm not an anxious person, like, I'm like, where is this coming from? Our son is very sick, like, he's been, he's he has epilepsy and has a lot of health issues, and so, you know, going through that, I'm thinking, oh, it's, it's because of my son. You know that I'm experiencing this, what I would term low grade anxiety, although a doctor has had never diagnosed me with that, I'm thinking, this is not normal for me. Like to have this, these symptoms, but I really like just even reflecting on what we're talking about right now, Nathalia, it's like it was this relationship that I was in. It was and it was like my body was telling me, this is not right, you know. And now that I'm out of it and I'm, you know, there's everything is quite resolved, you know, we've I have no more anxiety. I really don't I am. I'm solid again. I'm on. I feel like I'm back on solid ground, and and not feeling those physical very, very, they were very strong symptoms. So that's that. I just wanted to point that out, that a lot of people may be experiencing physical stuff because, of, of course, the relationships they're in, whether it be an intimate partnership or another dynamic that they're they're embroiled in.

Nathalia l Yeah, exactly, exactly, yes. Very important part

Robin l Can we, can we just go into recognizing toxic behavior and how you're helping, like, when you when you've got clients that you're working with Nathalia, and tell you, like, what are they coming to you with? And like, what are their their questions are like, how do I know if I'm in an unhealthy relationship, how to identify that? 

Nathalia l Yeah so I have a couple of different types of clients that come to me. Some of them have already identified that they are in a toxic relationship, or they have exited the toxic relationship, but they're having a hard time really moving on from the person and others they are in the midst of it, and they can't really see clearly, all right. So I have both types of clients coming to me, and I always like to define a toxic relationship by saying a toxic relationship is a relationship where with where one or both parties are unwilling or unable to change their toxic behaviors. Because it's also a little bit harsh to say that you're not allowed to have any toxic behaviors in your relationship, because we all do. We're all flawed.

Robin l Yes, we all they and they're Yes, of course, we're faulted, right. So we're not perfect people. Course not.

Nathalia l Exactly. So actually, two flawed people coming together is not a toxic relationship ship. If both are willing and able to work through whatever they're going through, let's say people who have insecure attachment styles, someone who has anxious attachment style. Someone who has an avoidant attachment style, they come together. Yeah, it looks pretty toxic in the beginning, but if they both want to work on it, then it's all good, right? You know, then we see some progress. Then there's a, you know, a genuine effort towards bettering themselves and bettering the relationship. I wouldn't define that as toxic. It becomes toxic when someone isn't willing or able to do it, and it's usually one person. There's usually one person in the relationship who really wants to work on things, who is reading, you know, books and going online and listening to podcasts and whatnot, and then the other person, for whatever reason, they don't do the same. And they don't want to.

Robin l I'm getting, I'm going to give you an example of this Nathalia okay, 

Nathalia l Please. 

Robin l Because we had, like, four, four in our marriage, our very, very short marriage, marriage counselors. Okay, so we, you know, I was hiring these people, left, right and center, going, like, please help. Please help. Okay, so that was okay. 

Nathalia l That was you. 

Robin l And mean, in the meantime, I do this for a living. I read, I mean, amazing relationship books and interview the experts that are here to help all of us in this realm. And I would say to my partner, like my boy, my husband at the time, can you please read this book? This isn't this is so full of information that we can both learn from and tools skills that we can learn and apply so that we can better this relationship. Because we're in trouble. I want you to read this and then we can talk about it, please. Okay, and I'm asking, like begging, almost, and no, I will not read that book, and all the reasons why, right? So that's a, right, perfect example of, like

Nathalia l That's a perfect example. You were in a toxic relationship,

Robin l And that, and my partner would not, he would not make the effort to change. Yeah.

Nathalia l That's I mean, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm so happy that you got out of it. And it sounds like you're in a good marriage now?

Robin l Well,I'm  not in a marriage, but a good relationship. But I just like, I just think, but I think that's, that's an example right there. What you're saying Nathalia is, like, you've got a person, like, one person or that is just not willing to grow or change. They're saying like they're not making the effort

Nathalia l Exactly. And then, of course, they have to have some toxic behaviors, right. So we're talking about a relationship where there are toxic behaviors and nobody wants to change, right? If everything's just great and nobody wants to change, then there's not a problem, right, 

Robin l Right? 

Nathalia l So what?

Robin l What would be some other what would be some other behaviors or techniques the toxic person uses?

Nathalia l So we have the classic, for example, controlling behaviors is a huge red flag jealousy, extreme jealousy is a huge red flag for someone to isolate you from your friends and family is a huge red flag, because that's usually a way that a person who doesn't have pure intentions can keep more control over you if you are less close with the people who could actually warn you and tell you that there's something off here with this relationship. It's also a red flag when you see extreme shifts. And by that, I mean going directly from a love bombing stage where everything has been too good to be true to the extreme, and then going straight into a phase where you're being completely devalued. You don't want someone who's switching on you like that, that switch you see, and then maybe sometimes they'll come home and they'll be in a great mood, and you'll get a little bit of that good loving, or good love again, and give you good loving as well, but good love again that you used to get from the person. But then they'll switch. So it's like that, Jekyll Hyde switch. Very, very bad, fine and run if you experience that. Of course, we are all during the honeymoon phase we're all a little more in love with each other and showing ourselves from our best side. But I'm talking about more extreme examples of love bombing and devaluation

Robin l Right 

Nathalia l That's definitely a sign, too. And then just not respecting you, flirting with other people, maybe even in front of you, secretive behavior, lies, hiding their phone, etc, things that feel always trust you know, for people who are listening, always trust your gut. Your gut knows. 

Robin l Your gut know

Nathalia l Gut knows. Yeah. When something feels off, it usually is 

Robin l Yes

Nathalia l Unfortunately

Robin l What about triangulation? How does that show up? Like, how does that present itself? Like, can you give us some examples? 

Nathalia l Yeah I  can give you some examples. Oh, it's a very it's actually very, very commonly used, and it's very effective. So a way triangulation that the toxic person can use this manipulation tactic to make you feel bad or to make you do something that you don't want to do. They can, for example, triangulation is when a third party willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly, becomes a part of the relationship. It can, for example, be that your partner always compares you to his ex. Okay, so suddenly it's not just the two of you, it's the three of you, and you're constantly being compared to this eggs. And he'll say, oh, well, my ex, she always used to do the dishes when I'm with the you know what I mean, so or like, it can also be someone else's, let's say someone else's girlfriend. Like, oh, look at my friend's girlfriend. She always, she always wears a nice dress when she goes out. You know, just comments like that are examples of triangulation, and it's all designed to make the partner, the person, the victim, feel bad and feel inferior. And, yeah, and it's very covert. It's not that direct, so sometimes it can be hard to catch it. It's like, was that really a dig, like, was that meant to hurt me, or was that just a general comment? So a third person will be used to manipulate in the relationship, and the third person doesn't have to be present

Robin l Yeah. So what you use the word covert. So what is the, you know, there there are, like, there's like an overt, like, narcissistic behaviors, and then there's covert, yeah. So what, what would be a way to differentiate those two? 

Nathalia l Yeah. Okay, so the overt and the covert narcissistic behaviors, and by the way, I love that you say narcissistic behaviors, because sometimes people can get very stuck on the fact does that, Is this person a narcissist? Are they a diagnosed narcissist or not? It doesn't really matter. I always say it doesn't really 

Robin l You say that a lot. You say that a lot Nathalia exactly it's like, we're not, we're not here to diagnose people

Nathalia l Yeah, if the behavior 

Robin l Like really doesn't matter, right?

Nathalia l It doesn't. If the behaviors are there, then they speak for themselves. So narcissistic behaviors are narcissistic behaviors, whether the person has NPD or not. So back to the question overt narcissistic behaviors are what you would probably imagine a narcissist to be like, very egocentrical, very loud, like super extreme level of confidence, it looks like confidence, at least, very selfish walks all over people probably cares a lot about their physical appearance to an extreme degree that would be an example of a more overt expression of narcissistic traits, right and using people left, right and center, without seemingly having any remorse. And then the covert narcissist. The covert narcissistic traits are more about playing victim, for example, being the victim, always using the victim card to manipulate people to do whatever the person wants. So the covert narcissists, the traits are more subtle and more difficult to recognize. Okay, so it's not, it doesn't look like a lot of confidence. It can actually look like the exact opposite, but the person is just using their own lack of self esteem, or, yeah, victi mentality, to control you and make you do whatever they want you to. And there's still no empathy there. The goal is the same. Both personality types they want something from you. They want some kind of supply from you. They they only care about themselves. They have very little empathy. So, so there are a lot of common denominators, but it just looks different in a in the expression of i.

Robin l Right I, you know, I've had this conversation with, unfortunately, too many of my good friends, family members. We are, like, strong, independent, good hearted women who and who've ended up in these very bad relationships. Like, how the hell did this happen, right? 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l And I'm sure that you've got a lot of clients that are like, like, like us, Nathalia, like, I I'm sure, because it's like, how is this happening? You know? How is it that these, like, really beautiful people, women that are like, smart and like, ending up in these really shity relationships. I mean, honestly, what is going on? Like, please Nathalia, help Help me help me understand why the how? Like, I mean, I'm out of it now, but I'm like, but this isn't like it was def, it definitely happened. And I'm like, like, I went through a long period of shame. Like, how did this happen to me? Right? How do I let this happen? I'm over the shame card now, but, I mean, there's a lot of covert shit going on that I didn't see, or maybe I wasn't. Maybe there was a red flag, or here, maybe yellow flags, a lot of yellow, but I'm and then maybe I definitely, I can say that, 

Nathalia l Yeah 

Robin l But, I mean, 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Okay, how are you, how are you helping them in with that you know?

Nathalia l Yeah, so it's just so bad. What you're saying is actually quite interesting, because we imagine that a victim, like, let's say, a victim of narcissistic abuse. We imagine that person to be, like, very low confidence, very shy, very but it's usually the opposite that is true, because narcissists, let's just say people with narcissistic traits. Now I'm doing it myself, people with narcissistic traits, they they are attracted to beauty, they are attracted to status. They're attracted to your sparkly personality. They want all that stuff. They're not looking for someone who's already behaving like a victim, they're looking for someone who's shining. Okay, so it's actually very common that it's these very beautiful, strong, successful women that you would never imagine something like this happening to. Okay, Funny, fun. It's not a fun fact, but a fact that is quite interesting is that, for example, you know the Spice Girls, right? 

Robin l Yeah, of course, right. 

Nathalia l The ultimate Melanie B was the ultimate power woman. She was in an abusive relationship for 10 years, and now she's come out of it, and she talks about it. And so it's just a great example of the ultimate power woman is girl power, right? It's the Spice Girls, 

Robin l Right, right

Nathalia l She ended up in an extremely abusive relationship with somebody. So it happens to it happens to very strong women, right? My theory is that when we end up in a toxic relationship, there is some kind of blind spot that we're not seeing. There is some reason that we choose to ignore those yellow or red flags. Part of the reason can be that we are simply naive and we don't maybe have a lot of experience. Maybe we have never heard of narcissistic behavior, maybe we've never heard of toxic relationships, probably not, right? You probably hadn't heard of it, right?

Robin l Oh no. I was talking to like, what, I'm a nurse that helps me take care of my son. And she was, she's like, that word didn't even exist until you know that that term narcissism didn't exist, like, when she was married, like, for 18, whatever, years, but she was definitely with a narcissist, and she's like, how did I know, you know, like, all these traits now that I know I'm out of it, she knows, right? But yeah,

Nathalia l Yeah, exactly. So that's the thing that can be a certain amount of naive, naivety, naivety, because now I'm saying in English,? 

Robin l Yeah

Nathalia l And that, of course, plays a role. But then there is usually also because the thing is, at some points, the the yellow flags will turn red. In the beginning they may be yellow. We give the person the benefit of the doubt, but there comes a point in time where our friends and family, they start getting worried, they start telling you that there's something up here. You don't seem happy. What is happening? He seems controlling, or whatever it is, and by that point, of course, you have already been manipulated to a certain degree, because it happens just a little bit at every day. So for example, for you, Robin, it didn't happen on your first date that he was being abusive. It wasn't on your first date, right? So it happened just 1% every day. We're in less than one than 1% and then over time, your boundaries, they get moved more and more and more and more. And one year, two years down, down the line, you can't even recognize yourself anymore, and you can't even recognize the kind of things that you're putting up with

Robin l You're absolutely right. And again, and like you said before, you said your family and friends at this point, they're, they're saying, they're like, what in the heck is going on? Like, they're getting concerned. Like, I'm going to tell you, my daughters were like, Mom, wow, this isn't okay. Oh, my God, you know my kids. And, yeah, because they were, they were suffering, right? And they're like, this guy is not, not cool, not good mom, you know? And I'm like, and then like talk about triangulation, because, 

Nathalia l Oh, okay

Robin l They would be brought into it, right and I'll so, you know, this is not about the Robin. This is not Robin's relationship.

Nathalia l Yeah, yeah

Robin l But I just think all these be these behaviors we can learn from because it's like there was a lot of things that, yes, you're right, your boundaries, your your belief systems begin to to shift and change, and you're allowing more, because you're thinking, well, and I think one of the greatest, biggest tactics is, it's gaslighting, but it's, it's like, 

Nathalia l You're the problem

Robin l Turning it on you. It's, it's me, like, it was distortion. I was, I was the problem. I was looking at things wrong, right? It was my, like, it's not him, it's me, like, Robin, it's, you're the one that's the problem here. It's your mothering you. It's the kids that are acting this way. That's, you have to be, you have to change how you're mothering. It's like, it's not him, it's them, exactly, right? It'sThat whole, 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l And you're convinced of it, I was convinced of it 

Nathalia l And that, yeah, and the problem with that is that you start doubting your own reality, and then you're probably going to get more and more isolated from the people around you who are warning you, because everyone's warning you, and they're sick and tired of hearing of this relationship. So maybe you stop calling them, maybe they stop calling you, and it just phases out a little bit over time, and suddenly you don't really have many people in your life to give you the help of reality testing, so suddenly this person's reality can become your reality. So one of the first things when people exit those toxic relationships is that they have to start trusting their own reality again. They have to start trusting their own gut, feeling their own their own intuition, because they've been taught to not trust that, but trust whatever that other person was saying, wanting them to do.

Oh my gosh, I really okay. So how are you helping people with skills and tools to recover, to to gain that again? That is, that's a that's really good, that's a really good point Nathalia, like starting to know and trust yourself again.Well, it's actually quite simple. First of all, you have to do your research on these behaviors, right? You have to listen to podcasts, like your podcast. You have to really educate yourself and understand that this was something that was systematically, maybe systematically done to you, and there's an explanation for why you feel the way you feel. And then you have to start because when you come out of the toxic relationship, you're hyper vigilant. You've been trained to be hyper vigilant. You're walking on eggshells constantly

Robin l Yes, and anxious. I was so, so anxious. I was just, like, every everything my nervous system was on, like, absolute, like, 

Nathalia l Because you had to, yeah, you had to walk on eggshells. You had to be very hyper vigilant. What mood is he in now? What mood? How should I behave, according to his mood, etc. So you have to educate yourself, and then you have to ask yourself very simple questions. I mean, it's simple, but it's difficult. You have to start asking yourself, what do I want right now? How do I feel? What do I like? Maybe you've only been eating whatever he liked for dinner for three years. What do you like to make for dinner? So it's actually, it's, it's quite simple, but it takes a while for you to to get to know yourself again. So it's kind of a journey of falling back in love with yourself and understanding who you are.

Robin l I love that I really it is a journey to honor you, to start honoring yourself again.

Nathalia l Self esteem, self love. It's very connected. So it's really important to have a period of time where it's all about you right after a toxic relationship. Don't jump straight into the next relationship before you're ready. You need time to heal. It takes time. You need time to get to know yourself, and then you need time to figure out, what can you do so that this doesn't the history doesn't repeat itself, because that's what we don't want, right? 

Robin l So what can you do? 

Nathalia l Yeah. 

Robin l What can you do? 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l What do you how do you coach people with that? Pleased Nathalia because I'm sure people are saying, okay, I'm out, I'm good. I've had time by myself. I feel like I'm ready to date again. How do I not end up in another relationship  like that?

Nathalia l Here's where you need some introspection, and you also need to make me look back at your childhood and at your attachment styles you had probably, you probably had some kind of blind spot or void that made it so that when those yellowish flags started showing you were willing to look away. And the void that I'm talking about or the blind spot could be that you were very desperate for love. It could be someone who has low self esteem and has never been with a successful, handsome person before. It can be it can be all kinds of things, something that you are longing for, or it can be like family, like having a husband and having that family life, and it's something that feels like such a void in your life that you didn't have it before that finally, when you got it, you were like, oh, but I want this thing. So because I want this thing, I'm willing to look the other way when it comes to a bunch of other concerning behaviors. That's usually so there's usually some kind of blind spot that you have to be really honest with yourself about for some people, it can also be financial, you know, it can be that that they're with a very wealthy, wealthy person, you know, narcissists or people who have these kind of behaviors, they're often very charming, wealthy, well off, successful, and you're kind of enjoying that lifestyle. And so when the yellow flash flag starts showing you realize you have to give all of that up, or you don't realize it. It all usually happens subconsciously, but you don't want to give up your lifestyle, so you just consious consciously, choose to look the other way. It's not just about finances. It can be any anything that's your blinds, but whatever, what is the void in your life? Is it the family? Is it finances? Is it lack of self esteem with your looks? Is it what? What is it like? Do you not have enough friends? Is it the companionship like and then you have to find a way to fill that void as much as you can yourself, so you're not so hungry when you meet your next person, okay? Because if you're too hungry, then you'll end up saying yes to something that's not okay. But if you're already, if you've already eaten, let's stick with that metaphor. You've already eaten, right?  

Robin l You're full

Nathalia l Sure, then you're not gonna, you're not gonna present desperate for whatever is going to be served. You're only going to, you know, go for the high quality. So, yeah. So there are many factors here. So you got to make sure that you fill your own cup. That's basically what I'm saying. You've got to make sure that you fill your own cup, that you do some introspection and and see, okay, this person was toxic, toxic, and I was kind of a victim in the situation, but what could I have done better? Or where could I have stepped in and taken care of myself?

Robin l Absolutely, you know, like I can think I think back on for me, it was like, I know you talk about love bombing. For me, it was like I I was speeding that relationship along way too fast. In the beginning, I didn't take the time. 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Really solid, solid time to to really pay attention. And, and that's something that I'm 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Like, I'm not repeating. It's like, and we, I think we really need to talk about a lot about that. And, like, when you're dating, like, in the beginning, just take your time. There is no rush. Like, you need to get to know this person that was a stranger, like that you just met. Like, you know, people are like strangers until, like, months and months like, right? Like, you need to know, get to know somebody.

Nathalia l There's no hurry

Robin l What's the hurry?

Nathalia l The thing, there's no hurry. That's such a good point Robin. And that's that's brings me to the next point, which is exactly this, you have to take your time, because people who do have bad intentions, they want to move fast. They want to, you know, there's usually also an element of jealousy and control within them, right? So they want to lock you down fast. They want to move in immediately. They say, I love you after a week, some of them do. So that's also kind of a red flag. And you gotta, you gotta really, really, really take it slow. But the problem, I mean, and that is that is good, because over time, you will get to know different sides to them. But another thing that you should also really do is you should do your research on a person when you meet them, which can be difficult in this day and age, because people date on the apps before the apps, you would usually kind of have some friends in common with a person if you start dating them, you know there would be some kind of commonality between the two of you, but now you can literally meet someone on the apps that you have no friends in common with, and that can be dangerous. 

Robin l Right

Nathalia l Because it's difficult for you to do your research.

Robin l So how do exactly, how do you do your research, right? Like, you're like googling this person, you're like, and I think, yes, I think the time piece is really important Nathalia, in this case, for instance, like, I met my I met him online, and I met my partner now online. And I think, like it's something like 70% of people are meeting their partners online now. I mean, majority, it's that is the most common way to meet somebody. So the time, time spending spent with somebody is so important meeting, meeting their people, their family, their friends, 

Nathalia l Right

Robin l What other ways are you 

Nathalia l Googling

Robin l Researching, Googling?

Nathalia l Yeah. Do do whatever is reasonable. You know what? I mean. I'm not talking about the, you know, high end stocking, 

Robin l Yeah, whatever you can do

Nathalia l I like to check their social media. You know, do they have any likes on their photos on Instagram? Like or is it just like one? Do they have any friends? Um, did you take their social media? If you can try to Google them, always do a little Google search. There's no harm in that. And then when you meet their friends, I mean, try to try to meet some of their friends, try to get involved in each other's lives in that way before you commit to someone, because that's a good indicator of who they are. And maybe I'm not saying it's 100% that you can find out some something, but you can at least do your best, then at least you did everything you could, and if they still completely hide their reality from you, then you know you did. You did the best you could. But yeah, and that also comes with time, like you say, Robin, if you take longer time, then there's a higher chance you're going to meet some of the friends. That's a higher chance you're going to be more involved in each other's lives, right? So that that's really important, 

Robin l Yeah

Nathalia l Because I could also list, for example, the red flags to look out for. But the problem with that, and I also say that to my clients, is that these people, they know about red flags. They're not going to show you the red flags immediately, at least not on purpose. You know, they're going to try and hide it.

Robin l So, so how are you identifying when somebody's like, am I in a healthy relationship? I really like the tips that you give around this Nathalia. Like, how do you know when you're in a healthy relationship? 

Nathalia l I think, yeah. So I think in the relationship, if it's healthy, because there's always going to be bumps on the road even in a healthy relationship, right?

Robin l Of course there is  

Nathalia l Like a marker of  a healthy relationship. Is if, when you do have your disagreements, is it constructive? Do you learn something from it? And does your partner and do you as well take whatever the other person said into account and at least try to change or try to work on themselves, because it's not about not having disagreements and not having fights. It's about having fights that lead to something constructive, that lead to getting to know each other better, so you can respect each other more, learn about each other's boundaries. When two people meet each other, they don't know they have completely different boundaries, completely different life experience. So having those kind of being really good at fighting, fighting well is a great marker of a good relationship. And I think also the way you feel about yourself. You know, since you've been with this person, have you felt more anxious and awful about yourself, or have you felt more calm and in tune with who you are? Do they bring out the best in you, or do they bring out a very anxious, hyper vigilant version of you? You know, I think that's also a good marker of it, because in toxic relationships, they'll probably bring out a very hyper vigilant, nervous version of you, whereas healthy stable relationship and healthy stable partner, they'll, they'll, they'll bring out, for the most part, a more calm, grounded version of you, you know, so you can thrive, thrive more in a relationship like that. That's a good way to, 

Robin l Yeah

Nathalia l To see it

Robin l In, in my partnership now, I feel like it's so good. Um, I've never had a relationship like this before. I'm just so incredibly happy and 

Nathalia l Love it

Robin l When I was very intentional, when I was wanting this new relationship, because obviously, I did not want to end up in another freaking unhealthy, toxic relationship. So it was like one of my stipulations was like, I need to be my partner that wants to grow like that was like one of my number one, like somebody, 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Because I'm on a growth path. 

Nathalia l Yeah  

Robin l I want to be the best version of myself, and I want to like that is so important to me that my partner be in that to look introspectively at himself 

Nathalia l I love that  

Robin l Right. Like…

Nathalia l Yeah 

Robin l Wanting to grow. I think that is 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Yes, and, and I, and I didn't realize I was looking for a piece and just chill calm. But now I have that it's like a different level, right? Like you said, it's like how you feel about yourself when you're in that relationship is just such 

Nathalia l Exactly and when you feel that groundedness, then you can also thrive in your life in other areas, because you have that extra energy. Toxic relationships, they take up all of your energy. You don't have room for anything else. You're just struggling to get by at your job, you're just struggling to maintain your friendships, you you don't have any extra energy to give to the world when you're in a relationship like that. So it's wonderful to be in a good relationship where you have that energy and you can build your business, or, you know, advance at work, and you know, yeah, 

Robin l I'm not questioning, I'm not questioning, I'm not questioning his intentions. I'm not questioning him at all. Like, really, it's just like, you feel solid. But that's a good that's, that's a good point Nathalia because something that I did, I've learned from you is around how the people, people pleasers, are often with, 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Somebody with narcissistic behaviors, right? And when I was in that relationship, that that was the people pleasing in me, that was, you know, constantly, like, I would, like, I think about, like, just reaching or trying to fix this and like, okay, let's right, okay, let's get another counselor on board. Or let's do Robin, you can do better, like you. Like, because I can, like, multi task, very skilled at doing many, many things and like, helping and pleasing. 

Nathalia l Yeah 

Robin l So that was that side of me that was, like, completely hyper vigilant and just 

Nathalia l Over compensating for his lack of enthusiasm for making the relationship work right then you were overdoing it and trying to do everything you could. Yeah, I mean, people pleasing is also a way to stay emotionally safe. So when you're with a, let's call it a dangerous person. I don't know to what level you your ex was, was dangerous, but, but then, then we do want to stay safe, at least emotionally. And people pleasing is fawn is one of the you know, it's fight, flight, freezer or fawn. So when you're fawning, you're staying safe. It's a way to stay safe in the world, right? So when you're not with someone, right so when  

Robin l Oh I never thought of that 

Nathalia l You're not with someone, where you are in danger, then you don't have to people, please? You don't have to people people. And of course, it's also something that comes from within, like we talked about before Robin, that it's, of course, something we as I'm also recovering people pleaser myself. So I mean, it's, of course, something we have to look at within our own behaviors as well, but it's also the other person can also really bring it up and in us, if, if we feel unsafe around them, then that's probably your go to. It's definitely my go to. If I feel unsafe then I'll people, please. That's part of it, too.

Robin l So you just recently got married, right? How long ago Nathalia?

Nathalia l It was in January. We got married. We actually started the process two years ago, but we got married in India, and the paperwork here, the it was insane, because I'm not I'm from Denmark, so that just the paperwork needed for that marriage to go through, it was pretty crazy. So it took us a little over two years, 

Robin l Wow

Nathalia l Got married, yeah, and we finally made it so now we've been married for, yeah, 10, about 10 months. 

Robin l Good for you. And so tell us about your your relationship.

Nathalia l Yeah, so it was funny when you said before that now in your relationship, it's really important to you to be with someone who also wants to grow and, you know, work on themselves. And that's definitely something that I appreciate about my husband, is that we have different approaches to this. He's more into meditation, and, I mean, I like meditation, but it's not my primary, you know, road towards self development. But he's really into breath work and stuff, but he so he has his own he follows a guru and this kind so I don't do that, but he has his own way of looking inwards, and I really love that when we do have fights, because we do fight, but I really love that he does think about it afterwards, and then he tries to look within himself and correct whatever was his part of that fight, whatever it was that he needed to fix. So we are a good example of two people who got together. We're both flawed. We both have our own issues and insecure attachment styles that we're healing from, etc, but we're both doing the work 

Robin l Right 

Nathalia l And our relationship has gotten better and better and better the longer we've been together, and more and more calm and peaceful the longer we've been together. And I love that too. 

Robin l Yes

Nathalia l It's not like we started with the, you know, honeymoon phase, and then it just went downhill. It's kind of the opposite, that in the beginning there were a lot of bumps, and we had to have a lot of fights. And we also have different cultures. He's from India. I'm from Denmark, East, West, it's just that when it comes to relationships, I don't think you can find two more different ways of approaching it than these two cultures, Denmark and India, but we've overcome all of that now and and, yeah. So I feel like it's, it's it's beautiful, that it's growing in that direction, that it just gets better and better and better, and we help each other heal. I feel, 

Robin l Wow

Nathalia l Not directed. It's not like we're sitting with each other and doing it, but 

Robin l Yeah 

Nathalia l Just like, even with the conflicts we're facing ourselves and dealing with our own stuff. So I I'm I'm very happy with that, and I would say that that I'm in a happy marriage, and that feels great. That feels really, really good

Robin l And I'm so great. I'm happy. I'm so, so happy for you. I think if we 

Nathalia l Thank you

Robin l If we can cultivate a relationship like that, where both of you are dedicated to your growth and your relationship is a vessel of growth for both of you, right? I mean, it's enabling you, like you said, to heal and grow within yourself, because you're being supported and your mirror is your partner. That, that's showing you, okay, these are your areas where you can, you can grow. And I'm going to help you with that. I just think that's like, if you look at it that way, and if it actually is that way, 

Nathalia l Yeah

Robin l Like, what? That's incredible. That's, that's, that's the dream you know

Nathalia l Yeah, exactly it sounds, I mean, and it is great, and it also sounds great. But of course, I'm

Robin l It's not a farirytale I'm not talking about the fairy tale here.

Nathalia l Yeah, right, because when you do have those fights, it can get out like it's not, it's not that fun, but, but ultimately, again, it's about, what are you getting out of it? Is it constructive? Are you getting closer? Are you growing further apart by by doing what you're?

Robin l Oh so I really like that. 

Nathalia l It's so true what you're saying. 

Robin l Good

Nathalia l Yeah, well, I'm just, I really appreciate that. Yeah, well

Robin l Well I'm just so glad that we had this time together. Really, Nathalia, I really, I really do honor the work that you're doing, and you're such a beautiful person. So thank you. Thank you.

Nathalia l Likewise, likewise, Robin, and you're doing this podcast, and so many I saw you had this, I mean, so many great initiatives, and you're spreading the word about relationships, and I'm sure providing lots of people with many, many helpful tools with the podcast that you do. So thank you for having me.

Robin l Well, I'm going to close with a blessing, and this is really for with a lot of your your words and your teachings. Nathalia, so may you know, may we know, if you have been through or in our in a toxic relationship, you're not alone. There is access to resources and professionals to help build self awareness of what has happened and steps to a journey of recovery. May we know that recovery from toxic relationships is different for everyone, but what is essential is time to go within yourself, reflect and still and get to know yourself once again, right? And may we make loving ourselves more fully and completely the utmost priority by doing so we can recognize what's not working in our lives and then choose the people, situations and relationships that do allow us to thrive. So may we all cultivate thriving relationships. I really I wish that for everybody, and bless blessings too. Blessings to you, blessings to everyone

Nathalia l Blessings to you for everyone. I love that. What a beautiful eah, that was very beautiful. 

Robin l Thank you Nathalia