Dené Logan - Sovereign Love

In this episode of Let's Talk Love, Robin is joined by couples therapist Dené Logan to discuss her new book, Sovereign Love. Dené shares insights from her work with clients and her education in depth psychology. She discusses how societal conditioning has led to an imbalance between masculine and feminine energies, impacting all of our relationships. Dené explores common intimate relationship patterns like the abandonment-shame spiral and invisible labor. She offers tools for navigating these relationship dynamics, how to communicate through love and transform unhealthy patterns. Dené emphasizes that by recognizing we are all on our own souls' journeys and by letting go of controlling tendencies, we can move towards interdependence within our relationships. This thought-provoking discussion provides a new perspective on understanding our inner masculine and feminine energies allowing for more fulfilling relationships.

We want to hear from you!  Please send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion

Sovereign Love: https://denelogan.com/book

FOLLOW DENÉ: INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | YOUTUBE

FOLLOW RLR: INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | X

Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice, to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. 

Welcome everyone to Let's Talk Love. I'm vibrating with excitement because today I get to speak with my dear friend Dene Logon

Dené Logan | Feels like such a reunion to be in your presence. I'm like I get to be with Robin this morning. 

Robin Ducharme | I missed you Dene, I'm holding up your beautiful book. Soveriegn Love. I spent all week soaking in this, all of you and what you wrote and the lessons and we're going to dive into your book. And your it's coming out in, well, it's coming out at the end of May May 23. Correct. 

Dené Logan | 18 days I literally was counting today. And I was like this is surreal. I feel like it's been such a long process. And it's like it's right around the corner now, I can't believe it. 

Robin Ducharme | Well I want to just say how proud I am of you and I loved your book, and we're gonna dive into it. Why don't we just start with that Dene on what inspired you to write your book Sovereign Love? And yeah, and then we're getting ready to learn more about you as we go. 

Dené | Oh ah, thank you Robin. Well, it's so funny, you say that I literally just finished having a session with my therapist. And we were talking about like the process and like, you know, as my book is emerging into the world and being birthed and how much this book, you know, a lot of times when people write books, they'll do a lot of research, or there'll be, you know, just like clinical work that they're doing that sort of inspires the process. And while some of that is true, I certainly feel like a lot of this book was birthed through me seeing certain dynamics playing out in couples and in relationships that I felt like we're not talking about in a real way in a way that like moves towards like what could be actual tangible solutions to some of these dynamics that just keep occurring, what I like to call the unspoken war of the sexes, that goes on in our relationships. But beyond that, I really feel like so much of this book was sort of offered to me from something larger at this moment in history. It was like this is time to talk about these masculine and feminine energetics in this way. And it was like something bigger than me gave me this information. 

Robin | Oh Dene I love that. And you know, you are I wanted for the audience that don't know Dene Logan, let's talk about your your story. You know, you you are where you were you raised in Nebraska. I remember you talked about. 

Dené | I was.

Robin | Okay. And now you live in Los Angeles. You're a couples therapist, you studied, tell us about your education. And you know, and now what you're doing day to day with clients? 

Dené | Yeah so I, I studied depth psychology in grad school. And I always say it's depth because people always think I'm saying death psychology. It's not the study of death. It's like deep waters, depth, psychology, which is really the study of the collective unconscious. And these threads that sort of link our human experience throughout different cultures and periods of time. It's the study of myths and dream work and, and really the work of the soul. Right? So it was a little bit of a different education in terms of like, the more clinical models of psychology sort of study our human experience through the very, like, you know, what I would say like what is concerned with like our physical bodies in these this physical realm and you know, what we're doing maybe from like an ego perspective, in this life, where is depth psychology is really concerned more with the soul work and like the spiritual practices and things that have linked us through different periods of time in this quest to understand what we're doing here, right. So I like to say it's sort of like if we zoom out on the hero's journey of our life, and I hold psychology and the work work of, you know, working with clients through the lens of like, if this is my hero's journey, what is this chapter of my life meant to teach me about myself and what I'm growing through and all of those things. And what I found when I started doing actual work with clients was that I had sort of an affinity for working with couples and what most people don't know but I have found to be true is that people either really like working with couples as therapists or like they won't, they don't like working with couples at all. And they're like, no, you can keep the couples. But I loved it. And I just felt like, for whatever reason, I was able to sort of translate what each person was saying in a way that they could hear one another differently. And it felt like, oh, there's, there's something about this that just feels like really easy and in alignment with what I'm supposed to be doing for me. And what I noticed about the couples therapy modalities that I have learned from and that were sort of like the current conversations around couples work was that none of them really took into consideration the work of the soul and what it means to be loving another person with the consciousness that we are souls, having a temporary human experience, we are not just these bodies, right. And to me, that really started to impact the lens through which I was holding the work, the conversations I was having with clients. And then as I talk about and get into in the book, I was doing this work for a while really starting to thrive in my practice. And what I realized was that my 12 year marriage needed to change form and that we needed to go from being in a partnership and the way that we were to changing and letting our relationship evolve. And, you know, we have a child together. So we were both really committed to what could it look like to not be in a relationship, but not have this be the thing that is like devastating to our child, that he feels like, you know, he spends his whole childhood being pulled in different directions, parents that are always at odds with each other, that type of thing that I think we're just really societally conditioned to believe, like, when you marriage or relationship ends, it's a failure, and that you should feel devastation, right. And for whatever reason, Robin, that didn't feel true for us, it felt like we were finally exhaling and letting go of something that we just both knew, was evolving and changing. And we were meant to allow its current structure to sort of, I want to say die actually, because in the form that it was it needed to die. And I think that's important to say, because there's so much about the way that we're conditioned, that makes it really hard for us to grapple with death and with grief of any kind in our society. And so I think even death of relationships, as we've known them, we really don't have any sort of contextualization for what that looks like, and a framework for how we can do that in a way that honors what it's been, but allow it to dissolve. And, and so it was like, we're gonna write our own rules, we're gonna, like, hold love for one another as the North Star. And that can be the thing that we continuously come back to. And what I found was that it really gave me a different lens through which I was starting to hold couples work because I was married for 12 years. And it never occurred to me for most of my relationship, that that relationship would come to an end. But what I realized was, there was so much about my relationship with my child's father that I was holding as if like, he belonged to me, and that, you know, I was entitled to certain things from him, and that there were ways that I didn't really take him in the, you know, the awareness of him as a soul and what that meant and how I honored his soul's path. And vice versa, like there was a way that like, I could see that we were like clinging on to one another based on fear for a lot of our relationship and, and that what I've now come to understand is there's a lot of ways that our relationships can really be a convenient place to hide out from doing the deeper layers of our inner work. And I certainly was doing that for many, many years in a marriage. And it just started to shift the way that I worked with couples and the questions I would ask and the ways I would challenge them to take a lot of responsibility for themselves in the way they were showing up. 

Robin | Yes, Dene so much of what you just said, I'm, I can still relate to I was thinking about when, when my first marriage, when I was the one to decide that I didn't want to be married to my friend's husband anymore. And I was brutally honest about how I just felt like this was it, you know, and, you know, you can't reason your way out of just knowing inside of yourself, when that truth what for me, it was a capital T for me inside of me that I that was it. And I have to say, I am a very spiritual person. And I can see I see life through that lens that you that you talk about, and you teach in your book around that we are these souls having a human experience. And thankfully, David, my first husband, he was just he he took it with such grace and honor and love and we are our stories are similar Dene and the fact that although it was like the most heart wrenching, heartbreaking experience, like one of the of my life. He just knew he couldn't change my mind. It wasn't about this big long conversation we could have, like, no couples counseling would fix this. And it wasn't meant to. So I and I love that you talk so much about that in the book, and how you just said it Dene, we're not understanding, or we don't we don't run up practicing understand, or going through break, break breakups death divorce, from this from this bigger perspective, and taking the judgment out of it. Right, because it's life. 

Dené | That's right. 

Robin | So in your see your book is Sovereign Love, A Guide to Healing Relationships by Reclaiming the Masculine and Feminine Within this is this is a diff and this is like you said, it's like, now, this is the time in our in psychology and our understanding of relationships, I think we're now at a place in our awareness or consciousness where we can actually start looking at the relationships differently. And that's what your book invites us to do. So tell us what Sovereign Love means. And I would like to for you, for those people haven't read your book yet, because it's not out yet. I was so lucky. But what, So what does it mean to integrate? Like, understand the masculine feminine because not male, female? Right? We all have a masculine feminine, which I learned, and then how do we integrate? How is it how is that so important? You talked about polarity and how important polarity important polarity is in our within ourselves and in our relationships.

Dené | Yeah, you know, Robin, what ended up happening and this is why I know for sure that we get things and I know you understand this, but we get messages and things that are channeled from somewhere else about things that we are meant to understand. I don't know why or where I came into this. What has truly become a love affair with understanding these masculine and feminine energetics in grad school. I studied Jungian psychology and Jung talked about masculine and feminine energetics, as you just mentioned, as these energetics that are alive within all of us. But he sort of talked of them talked about them as the Anima is sort of the feminine aspect of a man, the Animus is the masculine aspect of a woman, we have since come to understand that it's not that simple. We're a lot more nuanced and complex in our energetics than that. But the truth that Jung was touching upon is that these energetics are alive within all of us, and they are the aspects of self. And, you know, what I started to understand for whatever reason is that we have been living in what I like to call a wounded masculine paradigm societally, for centuries now for like, 3500 plus years. And that really, you know, if you think about the dawn of patriarchy, that was really in conjunction with what we now think of as sort of this wounded masculine paradigm. And I always like to say, because I think when I say the word patriarchy, it can sort of like, perked people's ears forward. Again, because of the way we've really been conditioned to think about what patriarchy is and that it somehow has to do with men or masculinity. And I'm not actually talking about men, when I say the word patriarchy, I'm talking about, like structures of dominance, right. And so those structures began a long time ago, and there was a lot about, like, how we sort of have power and dominance over certain groups of people, whether it's, you know, we make people our slaves so that we can sort of like create structures within a society or we have dominance over women, because the feminine aspects of women were sort of at like a period when patriarchy originated, thought to be unruly or wild, or, you know, something that like needed to be tamed and contained, right. And so there were very specific ways that a patriarchal society made that happen. And a lot of it had to do with, you know, oppressive ways of being in relationship to one another that a woman was like property, like, you know, you get a house, you get some land and a wife. Like, yeah, right. Like, this is what it looks like for you to have a good life, right? But we don't and really are not in our school systems taught to like learn a lot about like the history of that, and that there was a time when women were really harmed in order to make that happen. And if a woman didn't want to get married, or was married and widowed and didn't want to get married again, she would be chastised or harmed or burned alive at the stake sometimes, right. Like, these are things that we have never talked about, and I would say have never really reconciled, but they've been passed down as like traumatic pain points, generationally that we're still carrying in our relationships, but nobody's really addressed or talked about, right. So a lot of times, we as women got messaging about, like how to make ourselves appealing objects, really to keep ourselves safe, right, like when we think about the pressure that we as women feel very young to be the one who is chosen that all the boys will like that, you know, will, the boys want to go on dates with them, it is like getting attention, those things feel like oh, that's just the way girls are. But when you go back and look at how women used to function in circles with one another and really be in communal ways of being, which is really feminine aspects of our psyche, ourself, you understand that some of that is really like a conditioned response to like, put all of the emphasis on being chosen, that my self worth lies in when someone chooses me and decides that I'm worthy, and those are things that we were conditioned by our mothers a lot of times to believe, like, you know, don't show a man certain aspects of you, because he won't want to marry you, like, do whatever you need to do to seal the deal. Like all of these sort of unspoken narratives that I started to notice, like these are alive in the ways that one, we start off our relationships, but then it's like, if I have to do all of this sort of, like, coercing, and like, you know, ways to make this relationship dynamic come to fruition, it doesn't just all of a sudden, all, all of a sudden end, once we're married and in partnership, there's still a way that we have like intimacy with another person without what I like to call without actually having intimacy, right. So we don't all of a sudden feel safe in one another's presence. And there are still ways that society really sort of, you know reaffirms these narratives, like men talking about their wives as being like, the ball and chain who's always nagging or women talking about their husbands is like, you know, let's compete for whose husband is more useless than the other. And he's never showing up and doing all these things. It's like these ways that we have suppressed the truth of what it feels like to really objectify one another. And I would say, that's on both sides. That's not like a gender thing. We are objectifying one another in relationships. But we're not talking about like, if these are sort of transactional dynamics that we've been conditioned to hold to keep ourselves safe. What does that do to our ability to actually love one another, right. And so there's all these ways that as I started to really unpack and understand that the feminine within all of us than the feminine qualities just to sort of like name them are collaboration, trust, our ability to play and be in the imaginal space in the creative space, and really, to trust in life and to believe that we are souls and that there's like a divine order of unfolding with all of this, when we completely disconnected from that aspect of ourselves, we've been out of balance as a society, we've been like, you know, in this distorted way of being in masculine energy and masculine energy, when it's healthy is beautiful, like the the masculine within all of us is, is confidence is decisiveness. It is action. It is like, you know, these really beautiful qualities that hold space for us in this human body while we're in it. But we've sort of gotten out of balance for a very long time. And I believe we are living through the rise of the feminine, energetic within all of us. And we are starting to reclaim these beautiful feminine aspects of ourselves again, regardless of gender, gender, and as we integrate both healthy masculine and healthy feminine energy, what I find is, we're just able to be in relationship with one another, a little bit more, presently a little bit more, compassionately, because we're not sort of one holding all of that resentment about the aspects of ourselves that we're suppressing. We're taking a lot of personal responsibility for doing what you said, like showing up in truth and like, asking ourselves the tough questions about how we really want to live. But also, we're not looking for another person to complete us because I believe on a soul level, we were meant to outgrow that sort of distorted way of thinking about relationships that we've been holding for very long time now.

Robin | Yes, we're not looking for someone to complete us. And in your work, you share so many stories of couples that you've worked with. I think the relationship dynamics are changing, people are want people are wanting more out of their relationships. We are outgrowing this idea that until death do us part and our roles, you know, because women are we the feminine is is becoming more more equal. Yeah, in our society, but that means that our relationships, of course, are changing. So so and this is what you're helping people do right Dene is to can we go into the relationship trifecta that you're seeing? You are a couples therapist, you're seeing couples all day every day. And you say there are three things that the patterns three patterns that you see people playing over and over again. And the one refreshing thing the wonderful thought that I underlined in the book was, you know what, you've seen it all. You've heard it all pretty much. And one of the, I think comforts that we can gain is like, your your issues are no, yes, they did details probably are different. But people are fighting over similar things, right? You've heard it all. But I wanted to talk about those three patterns and see if we can identify those things in each of us in our relationship, the relationships we were in or have been in. And then and how you're helping your your clients work through that with the masculine feminine and the tools, right, because this this, this podcast is all about giving people the tools so that we can listen to this and then walk into our relationships and hopefully improve them for the better. 

Dené | So good. Yes, absolutely. 

Robin | So the relationship trifecta. The first one is,

Dené | Will you named them? Or do you have them?

Robin | Yes I do

Dené | Like my, my brain? I'm like, what? Yes. What are they?

Robin | So the first one is the abandonment shame spiral.

Dené | Oof yes. So such a common like dynamic that I watch playing out over and over. So the core pain point or thing that we're defending against feeling based on gender. And so in this case, I'm going to speak about these heteronormatively but we all have a core energetic and it's not always like if you're a man, your core energetic may not be masculine. It might be like a more core feminine, energetic and vice versa, right. But in this case, I'm going to speak about like a heteronormative couple who are like a core masculine and a core feminine. There's this thing that men are conditioned, like way back to defend against feeling, which is shame, and that sort of like, you know, being ostracized from the group for not being strong enough from not being able to be a warrior for not being man enough, I always say like, masculinity is something that men constantly have to be in the space of proving like that you're a man enough that you're not weak that you're not, you know, feminine, which is, again, men are taught to hold their feminine with so much contempt, and they have to continuously for a lifetime be proving that that's not what they are, right. So men are sort of defending against that core fear, fear of being shamed, and women are defending against this core fear of being abandoned. And that goes back to, there was a time when for survival, we as women really did need to comply with these patriarchal structures to keep ourselves alive. Because if we were exiled from the community, if we were out in the woods by ourselves, we wouldn't survive, right. So there are all of these ways that we've been conditioned to defend against being abandoned at all costs. And some of these are sort of primal instincts, but a lot of them are ways that we're socialized, right. And so what I see play out so often in couples is that as each person is defending against that core fear, they're sort of not seeing one another, and they're not hearing one another because they're just defending against shame, or defending against being abandoned. And so, you know, I give examples in the book of like, I will see, a man will be listening to his wife, a lot of times through that core fear. She'll say, you know, something that made her feel abandoned, you didn't show up for me, you didn't do that thing that you said you were going to do. And she'll be attempting in her way to express that, and he will just feel shame. And he will be defending against that feeling of shame, and not even able to process what she's saying openly. But if we understand that these are sort of core fears, they're very human, for us to feel this way. But they're not actually a lot of times, based on the reality of what is happening in this interaction between us, then all of a sudden, we can sort of like defuse that, like, yes, we understand that we're defending against those things. But what else could be true in this moment, other than my partner is trying to shame me or I'm being abandoned by my partner. And so it just gives us a little bit of a different ear to listen with, you know,

Robin | And so your couples therapy, and if you're talking to these two people, and you're like, Okay, this is what I need you to practice in these moments, right now, we're going to do this real thing in my office. But when you go home, and you're, you're in these spirals, and you're fighting over the things that really it's not about that thing, it's about the underlying feeling of feeling either in shame or abandoned. Right. So you, you're inviting people to, it's almost, I see it as like a heart opening practice. And less take, take it as hard as it is, right, these are these are like, pattern is patterns, okay? And it's behavior that you can change the pathways. So it's like heart opening, less defensive, we're on the same team. What are things that you are inviting people to do to change their pattern, and then their approach that's going to be different?

Dené | You know, I think what really changed things for me was understanding that we're only able to meet another person to the extent that we have met ourselves. And so if I'm defending against these feelings of like, I'm not enough or I'm falling short, I really don't have a lot of tolerance for your humanity. And so in these moments that I start to feel, I'm telling myself a story about, you know, why my partner is abandoning me or doesn't care about me. And normally, it doesn't sound in my head like he's abandoning me. It's like, 

Robin | He didn't show up 

Dené | He doesn't care about me, I'm irrelevant to him. Like he never keeps his promises men, you know, always do this, whatever the story is, I tell myself in that moment, is how the abandonment energy shows up in my head, right. But I really love to say like, first of all, our work is to come into the space of re- parenting myself, right. Like when I tell myself and a lot of this is Byron Katie's work has been so unbelievably helpful to me, and how to stay with myself in the inquiry in these moments of like, re-parenting my inner child. So that looks like if I'm telling myself a story, that my partner doesn't care about me. Can I get into inquiry first, before I go to talk to him about it, right. And so that sounds like in Byron Katie's work. Is it true that he doesn't care about me? Like, is it a fact, right? And in this moment, it might feel like yes, and it's like, okay, but how can I know for sure that my partner does not care about me. And it's like, well, I maybe don't know for sure that he doesn't care about me, but it really feels like it right. And then the next one is like, where do I feel it in my body when I think he doesn't care about me. And it's like, oh, if I start to like, feel that in my throat, there's grief, like my palms get sweaty, I like come into like the embodiment like of like actually feeling the somatics of what that feels like, right? And I start to do some of that, like, nervous system work of like really being in my body and like telling myself like, yeah, like, I feel those sensations, can I breathe through it and show myself I'm okay. And then the last question of Byron Katie's work is, who would I be without that thought, my husband, my partner doesn't care about me? Well, I would just be here waiting for my husband or whatever. The thing is, I would just be a person in my body, right? It's the story that's creating the suffering is the point, right? And so once I've done that work for me, I go to him and I with the most generous interpretation possible, and not far, it's important, right? I offer a more generous interpretation and say, Woof, babe, like, when you didn't stop at the store, after we talked about it, I started telling myself the story that you don't care about me right? Now that within him elicits a very different response than when I say you always do this, you never stop and do the thing that I asked you to do. Like, he will go into shame, he will start defending himself. But if I take ownership of, I was telling myself a story about what that meant, then all of a sudden, he's like, Oh, babe no, that, you know, somebody called and I forgot to stop. And I'm so sorry, I made you feel that way. That wasn't my intention, right. And it's just really meeting one another's inner children, I like to say, with so much more compassion for what we're each defending against feeling. But it's mindfulness work, because I have to really take into account like, my partner is just as human as I am. And a lot of times, we're trying to make our partner like this omnipresent, parental figure who has all of the answers and loves me in the way that like my parent couldn't, and they have the same fears and insecurities that we have. And so of course, they're not going to be able to show up for us that way. But if we really attempt to just like, meet them with such open hearted compassion, we get a very different response. But we've got to attend to ourselves first to be able to like, stay in our bodies enough to do that, you know,

Robin | So much of your book is about really bringing people back into self. Your is exactly what you're saying, like relearning how to reparent ourselves. What is this, Is this, I guess, objection, or a wound that you're bringing up is it really related to what your partner just did? Or is it something that actually it's reminding you of how you were treated as a child? Like you said, inner child work? So? Yeah, it is. I think we're so used to in relationship, especially an intimate partner and to look outside of ourselves. And what you keep inviting us to do with Sovereign Love is to go in inwards. So yeah. Okay.

Dené | I love it

Robin | So the second is the second of the relationship conflict trifecta is invisible labor and resentment.

Dené | Oof, yes. This one's alive. In the collective it's, I feel like I hear this conversation so often. And I really attempt to support couples in having this conversation in a different way. And for anyone who doesn't know what Robin means when she talks about invisible labor, there's a way that especially like, the way that I hear it being spoken about in in the zeitgeist, the cultural zeitgeist is a little bit that like women, you know, as much as we are sort of like, carrying as much of the the financial labor now and like most households have both people working within the household. Women are sort of continuing to carry an additional amount of labor. So I come home from work. And then I start the second shift. And there was a book and a documentary on this called Fair Play, where it was like women start their second shift, and now they're responsible for cooking the meals doing all of the you know, after school activities, making sure that like, the playdates are set, all the things I don't need to tell anyone, what all those things are, we're all aware, right? But that there's like an imbalance, and a lot of times and heteronormative dynamics that the man will be like, listen, I'm here to help just tell me what to do. And the woman is saying, If I have to keep the running list, though, that's still emotional labor that I'm carrying, I want both of us to be responsible for, you know, the list. And, you know, another thing that's a little bit interesting about my dynamic with my kids father is, he tends to be a little bit more of the one who is the over functioner. And I talk about this, you know, this invisible, invisible labor in terms of like, over function or under function or dynamics, because I think it's important and a lot of times, in our codependent dynamics, we also create polarity. So if one person is an over function, or in the relationship dynamic, the other person will be the under functioner, and carry less of the weight. And it's a dance between the, the two of us that we've created because it's like, each person plays their role. And it works until it doesn't, it works until there's resentment, right. But in my relationship with my kids, Father, for a lot of it, like he was sort of the over functioner he was sort of the one. If we can get more of that in the world, I don't know what happened. I have no idea what just happened. But my kid's father was the one who carried more of the emotional labor, he was sort of like the one that kept the checklists in his head. And I was the under functioner and what I realized was, there were ways that being in that dynamic really was stunting my growth, it was really keeping me from being all of the things that I had the potential to be. And so when we separated, all of a sudden, I had to have a different level of responsibility for all the things because half of the time, like our kid was, like, 100%, my responsibility. And so what I really attempt to support couples in is, how do we divide and conquer a little bit more like, first of all, I think we are over functioning as a society like period, I think we're all doing 

Robin | Good point 

Dené | Way too much. And I think that there's a way that what you know, 2020, and the way that like the world was sort of like on a forced slowdown showed us was that on a soul level, like we were hungry to not be constantly in this, like, hyper productivity state that we been in. And we started to, like, reconfigure our relationships and our ways of being in community where it was like, Okay, I have to work. But my neighbors are home as well. And they have to work. So how can we join forces a little bit and maybe do this in a little bit more of a communal way. And our kids can be in the backyard and learning together or going over the schoolwork while we take turns, right? I think between two people in the nuclear family structure, we're just doing too much. And I don't really think the solution is for just these two people to figure it out. It's like, we need more we need support on like a larger level. And so I really like to say like, how do we take the blame out of this? And say, like, what could we do from like that feminine imaginal space of like thinking of other ways that we could create solutions around this versus like, this is the way it's always been done, the mom has to do this, and you know, like fall in line. And it's like, it that doesn't have to be true. And I think the reason I had like awareness of that was that that actually wasn't true in my dynamic for whatever reason, I think my kids dad was raised by a single mom. So he sort of like had an awareness of like, here's the things we have to do, because he had to do them when he was young. And so it was just a different dynamic. But I think a lot of times, we can't see possibility until it's like, no, this is absolutely possible for us to structure this in a different way. And I think there's so much about the last couple years that has offered us just opportunities to see there are other ways that we can sort of structure our society and our relationships to give all of us a little bit of relief, you know.

Robin | Yes. And so you said when you when you're working with couples that actually feel like this, there's there's definitely this invisible labor and resentment. I'm resenting the fact that I've after coming home working, we're both working, I'm doing all this stuff. So yes, you do like you're dividing and conquering and hopefully you can turn to your community. What so like, what are you suggesting that people couple sit down and make a list of all the things that they that okay, this is what I'm doing daddaddada and I'm really needing some help. And this is other ways that we can maybe outsource this part of our lives, making set time for rest. Right? More fun more play?

Dené | That. Absolutely. I think first of all, we got to get out of the idea of like gender roles need to die as far as I'm concerned. Like, it's like, who cares whose role quote, this is? It's like, who is best at doing it? Who has the capacity to do it? Can we be in conversation around that, but this is a big one. And I'm talking to my sisters on this because this is something that we as women have very much been conditioned to do. But we do. It's like, if I give my husband a task, and then I'm standing behind him, like watching 

Robin | Micromanaging 

Dené | Correctly, that's like it negates the whole point of the support, right. So when, when we've divide conquered it, that means I'm out of it. Like, I don't care if my kid is wearing like a ridiculous outfit. It's irrelevant. It's it's not on me, right and a little bit. Some of this is like, we got to not let like perfection be the enemy of like, the good enough, right? Because sometimes we're just striving for perfection and like, everything has to be so over the top, and we got to be in all the activities, and we can't let anybody down, we got to disappoint some people, we got to like, back on our activities, we had to learn to say no, and sit in some of the discomfort of that a little bit more I find. But these are all things that are just so sort of the antithesis of what we've been conditioned to do. But I find really leaning into because I had to leaning into, like, I got to create a life that works for me. And that feels good. For me. It was a lot that was sort of not in alignment with what I had been taught. I was, quote, supposed to be as a woman. But what it really allowed me to lean into was like, I get to live a life that actually feels good, versus one that looks good on my highlight reel on Instagram.

Robin | Yes, I want to go through the third one. But one thing, one comment I want to make around what you just said is around alignment. Because you talk about in the book around compromise and how you say, you don't believe we have to we have to talk about that. We've already said third one, and we will people I love when I say that. But you talk about alignment in and this goes back to being authentic, and how a lot of people in relationship. And even when you're dating, I see it right you can see how people are kind of fake it till you make it kind of thing. And you maybe you're portraying yourself in a different way. And then you write and in relationship people can lose themselves. Or they're, you know, they're coming across as perfect couple and then next thing you know, they're people are like, what the hell, you're getting a divorce? I don't I didn't see it, what the hell. But it's not it's about being in alignment and being true to yourself. Right? In this relationship, and compromise. Let's talk about the difference between alignment and compromise.

Dene Logan  37:54  

Yeah, you know, I think what I have found about compromise compromise is normally like, I give up something that I want, so that I can get along with you or so that we can maintain this attachment. What I find is that actually ends up feeling like I'm compromising some aspect of myself, if this isn't true. And over time, that just starts to feel like resentment. And so what that could look like is, you know, it makes me feel uncomfortable that my, my boyfriend, my partner has friends of the opposite sex that he's been friends with for a long time. So I would like him not to see them anymore, right. And he'll say, well, to be in this relationship, I'm gonna go ahead and compromise, right. But if those are relationships that have mattered to me, that you know, I've so much of who I am, and like, what feels like a solid sense of self is sort of intertwined with those relationships. I can do that for a while. But over time, I will feel I will feel resentment, right. And so what I really attempt to support couples in doing and I think is actually more sustainable is really being in the inquiry of like, what would feel like alignment. Like, if I don't trust my partner to be in relationship with friends of the opposite sex to me, that's a larger conversation about like, who I believe this person is, and like, the actual trust I have. And I feel like a lot of times to avoid discomfort and to not really challenge ourselves to like, take ownership of like, do you really trust your partner? Like sometimes I will ask a woman in a scenario like this will do you trust him? And it's like, the bigger truth is no. And if you don't trust him, why are you in a relationship with him real talk, right. But I think we're really raised with what I like to call an ownership template of partnership. And again, that goes way back to like these origin points of patriarchy that like once you're in a relationship with someone they belong to you. I don't think that's true. And I don't think in the world that we are creating that that is going to be sustainable anymore. And so it becomes how do we find alignment with something that feels true and authentic to both of us based on like, the highest versions of ourselves, and of course, we're not always going to be our highest versions, but that can be what we're striving towards. And if I trust in life, if I trust in the unfolding, then I don't need to control another person. And so I think so much of the time, what we're calling compromise is just as attempting to control another person if we're really

Robin | So we can feel bette about ourselves and feel more secure and safe in this relationship. 

Dené | That's right, 

Robin | Right. Yeah. So it's, it is so much about you say this in the book about just we're trying to release this, this hold on codependency. So many of us have been in codependent relationships with family members, siblings, I mean, you know, not just intimate partners. There's this is this is a dynamic that's in relationships. It's not just an intimate partnership. So

Dené | Yeah. And I think we've been taught that that's what love is, is codependency, you know, and I think we're outgrowing that as a way that we hold what it is to be in relationship with anyone as you're speaking to. 

Robin | Right, okay, so the third relationship conflict trifecta, which all man I think this will some people are gonna don't resonate with this one, parenting your partner and power dynamics.

Dené | Yeah, it's, you know, I think and this is a little bit where I don't want to say buttheads, but I have like a little bit of a different perspective on a lot of the relationship orientations that really suggest that our work is to be that you know, re-parenting source for our parent, or excuse me, for our partner. What I've come to understand about relationships, and this is another one of those places where these polarities play out is, we need two things in all of our relationship dynamics. We need a healthy form of attachment, a sense of security, something that we're tethered to something we're rooted, that's our masculine energy, right. But we also need Eros, aliveness, lifeforce sensuality, that's our feminine energy. But in a wounded masculine paradigm, we have put a tremendous amount of emphasis on the attachment on the structure on making sure we stay in this relationship dynamic at all costs, not a ton of emphasis on how do we continue to cultivate Eros and lifeforce and sensuality and all of these beautiful feminine aspects of our relationships, right. And a really quick way to deaden that is to believe that my partner is again like this fused entity or that my parent or my excuse me, my partner is meant to be parenting me, because I don't know about you, but in a very healthy way, I do not feel attracted to my parent and vice versa, they do not feel attracted to a child. And so when we get in these dynamics of feeling like, I am meant to be sort of like guiding my my partner as though they were a child or that they're inept, and like, not trustworthy. What that does is it really kills the Eros, it sort of kills my ability to see my partner as the erotic other. And that, again, is just not a sustainable thing over time. It's why so often, I think the most common thing that people come to couples therapy for Robin is there's been some sort of rupture based on infidelity. And it's like, well, we can't think that we can completely squash, the eros, the lifeforce in a relationship, and that at some point that won't come to the surface. But a patriarchal structure of partnerships have really taught us to reject the feminine, the feminine is the sensuality, the feminine is the aspects of ourselves that, you know, when I when I say sensuality, I mean, all of the life, all of the breaths, all of the color, all of those beautiful aspects of what it means to be alive

Robin | Softness and creativity. And exactly, yes

Dené | Yeah but we've sort of said, like, all that matters is you're safe, and you're safe, if you just stay in this container. And, you know, just as long as you're certain this person isn't going anywhere, that's all you should need. And it's just not true. And I think that there's a way that we're starting to understand you see this, like huge rise and all of these people looking at, you know, challenging mono-normativity and really like open relationships and polyamory or conversation that everybody's having right now. And I believe that's the rise of the feminine and I don't think it means that in any way, shape or form, we can't desire a monogamous relationship if that's what feels true for you. I think there's beautiful things about you know, monogamous partnership. I personally, like several partners kind of sounds exhausting to me

Robin | I need simplicity in my life that's complication.

Dené | I'm like yeah, that sounds like a lot of work but it's knock yourself out. But you know, at the same time, I think the reason we're challenging all of these ideas and structures right now is because we are living through the rise of the feminine energetic and that we're saying no, no, no, like, we we need life force we need to be alive while we're here in these bodies. We didn't come here to just stay safe. You know, I talked about in the book that like ships are safe in a harbor but that's not what a ship was built for. Right like we are meant to like be alive and experience all of the pain and the aliveness and the eros and the challenges and, and everything that we came into these bodies to feel. And I think we're just like coming into remembrance of that collectively.

Robin | And so when you have this dynamic showing, with couples, it's the parent, you know, you feel like, you know, and I imagine there's a lot of the invisible labor that goes along with this too, like behaviors that you feel like, what the hell I have, I already have two children, three children, and I'm taking care of you do, like, you're not my child, but you sure as heck, like maybe I'm doing it. Right. Right. You're, you're accepting it. And then you feel like, I'm not attracted to that at all. Because I feel like I am taking care of another child. 

Dené | That's right. 

Robin | So how do you switch that dynamic?

Dené | Yeah, I think, you know, a big part of it is that we got to lean into trust. And when we don't trust, a lot of times, it's less than I don't trust my partner. As much as it's I don't trust in life, I don't trust that things will be okay, no matter of the outcome, that I will be safe, that I will be held that things will work out, right. And that's a big conversation. But that is the work because a lot of times when we're attempting to control another person, it's our attempt to sort of mitigate or self regulate through anxiety. That's what's really going on. 

Robin | Yes. 

Dené | And so that, again, is my work to like really be in relationship with what is the story, I'm telling myself about what happens if this person doesn't comply in this moment? Or if this person drops the ball on this thing? Like, a lot of times, we'll be like, you know, the worst case scenario. Well, yeah, but if I don't make sure my partner does this thing, then this thing's going to fall apart. And it's going to be awful. And what I will say in response to that is, yeah, it might, and then what, right, like it's just we sort of stopped at the catastrophe, thinking the world will no end. And it's a lot of times like, yeah, and maybe if your partner feels the felt experience of what it feels like to let things fall apart, that teaches them a lesson, you know, I talked a lot of times about, there's a moment with children a lot of times where like, if you imagine a toddler, like walking towards a stove, you can say like, don't touch the stove. It's hot, right? I think this happened with my little boy with like an iron once. It wasn't like me telling him not to i i thought it was unplugged and not hot. But like, there's this moment that we first realized, like, oh, that's hot, right. And someone can tell you that. But once you have the visceral felt experience of hot, you don't touch it again, right. But that's a lot of our life lessons. Like once we have the visceral felt sense of like, oh, I messed that up. But now I've learned something. And I believe this is a life school. And I think there's so much of what we are doing relationally that is really sort of disturbing our process of really learning the lessons that we came here to learn. And sometimes our work, you know, really shifting away from, as you were saying, again, that codependency is when I don't allow someone to feel pain or discomfort, I am robbing them of the lessons that come from those moments. And that's like, the deeper honoring of that person as a soul and their souls path. And then I am not like I don't have the right to stand in the way of them learning those lessons. That's what they came here to do. You know?

Robin | Yes. And you say in the book Dene that you said, this conversation is around the fact that, really, it's remembering we are two individual souls that are on on our own life's journey, our own life's path. And if you if we can look at our relationships, and our lives from that way, it changes the whole perspective. It's not so much you can't control somebody else like, or you can't control so many things about your own life. It's just right. It's the control piece that's just getting in the way and making a lot of mess and anxiety.

Dené | Absolutely. That's real, and it's it doesn't change it anyway. And that's what's so important. 

Robin | That's right, doesn't change the outcome. 

Dené | It's just like, we just keep being in this space of like, constant conflict. And a lot of times, it's just not like we will resist on a subconscious level being controlled. It's just what the human psyche does. Yeah, we all want to be loved unconditionally, we all feel sort of like reminded of that parent that was criticizing us when our partner is trying to change us. And so will resist it. And we can be in constant like circular patterns of resistance with one another forever. And to me, it's like, just stop, you know, like, we're like just swimming against the current of life where we could just allow life to carry us a little bit more. We're going to be in the same place anyway. We're just gonna get there with a little bit less struggle, you know?

Robin | Yes. Okay. Before we close, I wanted to read a testimonial, some feedback from somebody who came to your workshop at the In Bloom summit in April. Today. It was so good. And I contacted him yesterday to say Can I please share this? He was like, absolutely. It was it was amazing. And so Dene you were You were talking about sovereign love at your workshop in April, Vancouver. 

Dené | Yeah.

Robin | And so this gentleman, it was so kind of him to write it. What he says he says, I was going to say something at the end of Dene Logon's session, my time was short. I never knew as a man, that I would be standing here saying I show examples of negative feminine energy. He says, if I have never asked a direct report, or a team member for consent, because we talked to no consent during your workshop, to proceed with X, Y, Z, how could I understand their understanding and their commitment level? He says, My marriage is amazing. After that weekend, I think 90% of this is a level of openness with my partner, and I and 10% is effort. So isn't that a great walk like takeaway, and he says, my work has been a game changer. I approach every day starting with love. For traditional male, this was and still is a challenge to sell the concept to others. However, I've learned by visible actions with minimal effort, others are taking note. By showing authentic love. I'm being vulnerable. It's contagious, and paying dividends faster than any business strategy I've tried in my career.

Dené | Oh my God, my heart.

Robin | Oh my god, he was taking, he's taking all of that in and that was so much of the feedback that we received from your session is, you know, it's you can take the awareness, you know, we can read books, we can listen, but then he's taking it into your life and practicing. And the fact that he's being more open in relationships being more vulnerable in like life and his work. Like it's, I just think that's so awesome.

Dené | Oh, Robin, that means everything to me. Thank you for sharing that with me.

Robin | Thank you. Dene I hope everybody takes up your book. I mean, it's on it's on Amazon, right? Your Are you are you doing it audio?

Dené | It's,  it will be available in audio.

Robin | Because I love the audio and the paper like like a both so that I can listen and like take notes, you know, it's when you borrow books, it's like all messed up, but it's all good. So I just thank you so much Dene for all the work you're doing and the the beautiful person that you are. And I know that you're making such a very important impact in the world with everything that you're doing.

Dené | Right back at you, sister, you are such a kindred spirit. And I know that you hold the same dedication to this idea that we can love one another a little bit more in alignment with the truth of who we are. And I just am so grateful for a collision and all of the work that you're doing in the world. Robin truly

Robin | Me too, sweetie. Okay, we're gonna close with a blessing. So these are these are your sentiments. So this blessing is from Dene Logan in collaboration with Robin Ducharme. And of course, the Universe and God. Oh, may we end the struggle of constantly looking outside of ourselves for answers. May we have the courage to turn inwards and truly look within ourselves with the same love and compassion we grant others. May we reclaim this self by understanding how the integration of our inner masculine and feminine is the path to experiencing fulfillment in all of our relationships. And may we understand as we liberate ourselves from the illusion that we are anything less than perfect, whole and complete, in this moment, exactly as we are, we're able to show up in a space of presence and offer love to one another. So nice. 

Dené | Makes me cry. Thank you Robin.

Robin | Thank you Dene Logan. Lot's of love.

Dené | Right back at you. Thank you love.

Robin | Thank you so much for listening. Visit realloveready.com to continue learning with us. Please rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the tools and guidance you need to form more loving relationships and create positive change in your life. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude are the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well. Many blessings and much love.