Robin Clark - Feminism and Anger 101

This week on Let’s Talk Love we’re joined by feminist life coach, Robin Clark. Robin’s work empowers women to break free from good girl conditioning. She doesn't believe any of us came here to be "nice women" and is the first one to give you permission to set that aside and say or do what’s true for you.

Together we explore how gender roles, anger suppression, and relationship dynamics can impact women.  Robin gives us actionable tools for overcoming patriarchal dynamics ingrained in many of our behaviors and relationships.  This is an empowering discussion about healing from patriarchal conditioning and how we can use anger in a healthy way to fuel positive changes in life.

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Learn more with Robin Clark:

Date Like a Feminist: https://robinclarkcoaching.com/date-like-a-feminist

Website: https://robinclarkcoaching.com/

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Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready

Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Today I had a fantastic conversation with Robin Clark. Robin is a feminist life coach for women. Her work empowers women to get free from good girl conditioning, and cultivate a solid sense of ground within. I took two of Robins workshops this past weekend, feminism one on one, and anger one on one. I highly recommend anyone listening take these courses, I learned so much about myself and how to heal my own good girl conditioning. Robin gives us actionable tools for making changes to the patriarchal dynamics ingrained in many of our behaviors and relationships. This is one episode I hope you'll pass on to the women and men in your life. Enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host Robin Ducharme. Now let's talk love. Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. 

You know today I have this amazing guest and we share the same name Robin some Come on.

Robin Clark | I know it's something right.

Robin Ducharme | Robin Clark is with us today. I want to thank you so much for being with us. Robin those of you that don't know Robin yet. Robin is a feminist and advocate for women to feel strong, safe and self expressed. You are a truth teller, an artist and an intuitive and a deep diving woman. And Robin I I'm seriously I'm just so excited about this episode, because I've been taking your workshops. I learned so much from you this past week. And I'm wearing my light lightning bolts sweater because like, I feel like so many things that you were teaching in these workshops. Like I had lightning bolt moments, like these weren't just aha moments. These were like, I felt like there's so many switches that kind of were is that the words switched on? Or flip the switch? Yeah. So I just I value your time and everything you're doing in this role to empower women get us back into our own empowerment. And I'm just so happy that you're here.

Robin Clark | Yay. Thank you so much. I'm so glad the workshops had that effect. That is, that's always my hope. And I'm happy that it happened.

Robin Ducharme | Wow. So first, you have any idea how many people have taken so I took your Feminist 101 workshop, and I also took Anger 101. Any idea how many women people have taken these workshops? Like at estimation? 

Robin Clark | Hundreds. Yeah, 

Robin Ducharme | Amazing.

Robin Clark | Yeah. And it was a test run last year to see if people liked little like one off workshops, because generally I teach classes and they were like a huge success. So I was like, Okay, we're gonna do more of that now just slowly start drip feeding more and more of, I just feel like they're building blocks. They're the building blocks that help women just begin to start like moving the ship out of being so other oriented and into like, oh, I have agency and now I have understanding and now their skills. And now I'm getting supported on how to use them and we can like actually start shifting our operating.

Robin Ducharme | Absolutely. So can you tell us tell our audience about yourself? You're a feminist coach, and you did work as a counselor for many, many years. Right? 

Robin Clark | Forever. 

Robin Ducharme | Yes. 

Robin Clark | I felt like it's funny. A friend of mine from childhood told me a story that when we were in, I think fifth grade and transitioning to middle school. I have no memory of this. But she was really concerned she was she go to the middle school everyone is going to her this private school she was drawn to. And I guess I sat her down and made her makeup pro and con list. And then I asked her what her five year goal was, and which school would most help her get where she wants now. She's like a really badass lawyer in Chicago. And I was like, she's like that school was so helpful. I'm so glad because my parents didn't know how to help me decide. So apparently, I've been working as a life coach since I was Ten, 

Robin Ducharme | You're in the right line of work. 

Robin Clark | Yeah, sort of an ordination. And when it became really crystallized, you know, when I got older, I went to college and worked in internships, like a battered women's shelter, and then I worked with kids who had been abused. And then I worked in a locked psych ward. And then I worked with a rehab for gay men here in the Castro in San Francisco. And I just was like doing kind of social work jobs while I also went to grad school to be a therapist. I did not complete that but I was trying that path out. You know, I was just like, somewhere in this ballpark is where I'm supposed to go. But there was never a job description that was like feminist life coach, that wasn't a thing. So so that took time to have my own journey. and distilling my own experiences and with also this kind of coaching guiding gift that I had as a foundation and just figuring out, like, how is this all going to piece together and then probably around what I guess when I was late 30s is when it really looks like crystallized. And over those next few years, which is, you know, maybe eight or 10 years ago, it's just becoming more and more refined. And then also the advent of Instagram. We could never have imagined what social media was going to be like social media influencer, that's not a job that I was thinking of as a child. Right? So it's just like, the opportunities work together. And here I am. 

Robin Ducharme | Yes, Yes. And you I mean, you have, you have hundreds of 1000s of followers on Instagram. And what I love about IG is, you know, it used to be, you know, it used to be more like a Facebook, like social media platform, connect with your beds and share pictures. But now for for those using it, you know, for this tool of teaching, and connecting and learning and growing together, I think you're doing a tremendous job because people can access this very important information that you're sharing, and learn and grow together, right? 

Robin Clark | Yep. Totally

Robin Ducharme | So what is that? What is feminism and what is a feminist coach? I think I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding around what feminism is. It's like, rah rah women, women. Yeah. Like no, like, you know, a fuck the men. You know, like, let's just get clear on what feminism is.

Robin Clark | Well, I think if you asked 10 different people that are interested in feminism, you would get a variety of different answers. Because we're all standing from a slightly different perspective. I think about feminism as being the antidote to patriarchy. You know, patriarchy is this system of dominating the feminine, and it's a hierarchy where the closer one is to a white, straight, presenting at least male land owning with money, you know, the closer you are to that, that's like the top of the patriarchy heap. And then as it goes down from there, based on race, class, gender, sexual orientation, etc, you're more and more under this system that is trying to suppress and dominate you. Feminism is saying, no, no, no, no, we're all equals. And this this, sort of like a Rubik's Cube system of capitalism and racism and white supremacy, like this whole, this thing is just got to go. Right. So that's a big ask. So how do we actually in our immediate lives do anything about that, and I think you can look at it from an individual level, family level, community level, a societal level, right. And there's people that have gifts that I think really focus on the different areas. And of course, we're experiencing all of that all at the same time. You're not just an individual, you also live in a society and have a family. But I think different people's gifts really focus very well on different areas. And I think the area that I'm most focused on is the individual, like, how do you, as an individual woman, take stock of your immediate life, and begin to breathe more agency into this, it's where you are becoming more aware of the subtle and maybe not so subtle ways that other people are making choices for you. And you bring more of your own choice and needs and power forward in your own life. Which of course then affects families and how we are at work and how we parent and all that, and that's kind of like my little world, but that is by no means the whole world. There's, there's certainly and I applaud them, people that are working much more say like, on the societal level, and that's much their gift. So in all of this when we're talking about equality, shared power, shared humanity. 

Robin Ducharme | Yes.

Robin Clark | Now we're in the realm of feminism, and that's what it is. So it's not just, you know, fuck men, though. It's, you know, there's, there's a place for that, but that's not by any means. The whole story? 

Robin Ducharme | Yes. 

Robin Clark | In my perspective

Robin Ducharme | Yeah, so, when when we're talking about patriarchy, and you talk in your so I took your one on one and you talk about good girl mentality, and both, but I mean, a lot in your Anger 101 workshop, which I recommend all your listeners, you have to take this course it is so good. About how important anger is. And you do break down. Patriarchy, right? Any talk about good girl mentality, so and how we as women are taught to suppress our anger, like it's not, you know, this is something that women need to learn, like, we need to learn how healthy our anger is. And with men, that's not something that they're having a lot of issue with, like, you know, we're gonna talk about perspective. You're like, it's okay for a man to get angry with a woman. It's like she's a bitch. She's being like crazy. She's a maniac, whatever words you know, we have heard many times in our lifetimes, and around a woman being angry, whereas a man has to learn use it like vulnerability, like that's something that they're not anything they've learned or been taught to suppress, whereas women, it's anger. So I was like, wow, I didn't understand that. I was, you helped me put that into words and understanding. I was like, Yeah, that makes complete sense.

Robin Clark | That's great. I'm really glad that was your takeaway. I think people don't understand that. I will just put a plug in here that I think men need to learn how to be much more responsible about how they express their anger. And also understand that a giant percentage of what they think is anger is their repressed emotions that they don't let themselves feel and like only come out as anger when actually it might be grief, resentment, jealousy, sorrow, confusion, that they just they're conditioned anyhow, to process all of that as anger. So they don't quite have a problem with feeling angry, except they totally have a problem with feeling angry, know what I mean. They have to learn how to deal with the emotions that are below that. That's their work, our work is agency voice, will anger, like that thing that we were taught to just put down, you know, it's almost like a just been put to sleep, it's there. It's there. It's not gone. It's there. It's just been like, muted. And how do you bring that back, weave that into your whole identity, because it's very jostling for women, they feel confronted and almost scared of their own power, because they realize that it's gonna change the status quo, both in their lives, but also in how they think about themselves and identities very. It's a sensitive area, you know, so it's kind of like, we have to, like, slowly learn how to integrate that and develop skills and tools for how do you actually responsibly express one's anger, which I hate to say another is how to responsibly and express your needs and your sense of self?

Robin Ducharme | Yes. So I really liked the analogy you give on how, like, we are the castle, right? And you say this a lot in both of the workshops as well. And like, we have to be we, you said women are trained to know what's going on with others. We're not as good at locating ourselves. Anger helps us see the parts of us that want others to respect us, and respect ourselves. It's about coming home to ourselves, and like, we are our own homes. So I love the analogy of like, we are the castle, right? And if I'm if I'm saying this in the incorrect way you can, you help me and when somebody breaches the castle, like the guards are sounding the alarm, right? I can see an anger that is the it's like, there's an alarm going off here. You're gonna feel like oh, I'm getting the castle is being breached. Like, this doesn't feel right. And it could start out as like annoyance and build up. But sometimes it's just like your alarm sounding like no, no. Right? Like

Robin Clark | There's no build up. It starts at 10 You're like, you know, but sometimes it doesn't. It's an annoyance, irritation, frustration, resentment. Those are all the beginning of the alarm going off. Yes. The alarm being your own sense of integrity. That's like something's not right. 

Robin Ducharme | Right. 

Robin Clark | I'm being mistreated in some way.

Robin Ducharme | And what you're what you're saying is like, anger actually helps us see, very, I feel clearly when it's like, the warning signs are going off. And we are we are being while we're being hurt, right? Like we know it. And so it's just like, and it's up to us to understand that anger is actually there's nothing wrong with that. Like, that's the thing. I think we're so all so many girls, women are taught like, anger is very bad, do not get angry. Like it's just like shhh, keep the quiet. Or you're not taught a good example of you know, some, like you said, you could be a volcano, like you're raised around that, which is unhealthy anger, or just like, don't say anything, just keep your mouth shut.

Robin Clark | Correct. And let's be clear, the volcanoes are also repressors you know, when we're, yeah. We're taught to repress our anger. And then there's a certain genre of person that just keeps on with that. They just stuffed down like numbing and avoiding and, you know, I'm just gonna, you know,kind of, you know what, actually, I'm gonna avoid that conversation. I'm just gonna watch this, you know, nine season show on Netflix. You know, what I didn't catch on the last half of Grey's Anatomy. I'm gonna watch that. Right.

Robin Ducharme | Exactly. Seven more seasons.

Robin Clark | Yeah, you're just like, man, what was that ever gonna need us? I don't know. Right? And just the whole life is designed around, avoid avoid, right? But there's this other genre person that will do that for a while. And then something in them was like, no, and like, and then they volcano right. And some people that's really quick, but, you know, they just go from stabilize to erupting very quickly. They're like hair trigger. That's true. But there's a whole genre. It's like repressed and oppressed and then it all comes out. And I think in both of these cases, these are people that are not, you could say not dealing with anger healthfully. But there are people who are very scared of asserting their needs in a direct manner. What I liked, as you saw from the workshop, I liked the image of an archer. Right, it's neither repressing, nor is it a volcano, you're being very intentional and direct with what you need to do in service of your own needs. Do you need to sit someone down and be like, You know what, we started this relationship under these agreements. And I'm a different version of me now. And we need to reorganize how this goes, and I'm not attached to the outcome. I'm not trying to pressure you. But I can't go back there anymore. So let's talk about how we're really going to move this forward. And you just, and no matter what they say, you are like, putting your stake in the ground about having a firm conversation around, I've evolved, right. 

Robin Ducharme | Right

Robin Clark | And women are scared to do that. And they've never seen it modeled. They know avoiding, and they know, all manner of lashing out, right? We've seen it all. But what we haven't seen enough of is people lovingly but directly and firmly speaking their needs. And that's, that is where anger starts becoming such an amazing tool, because that frustration can give you the bump you need, but you have to be able to say what you need to say, in a responsible manner.

Robin Ducharme | Yes. 

Robin Clark | Which doesn't mean you know, sometimes you're gonna be mad, and that's fine, where you're just like, Ah, right, but we're not climbing into people. That's got a, because that's a boundary violation. So we have to dial back on that.

Robin Ducharme | Right. I want to my, like, I'm going through like a pretty shit divorce right now. And we're gonna get through it, but like, I'm, you know, I'm on the tail end here. So, but when we were together, you know, I'm I and I, you know, I've been taught, I've got all the tools for communication, right? You know, I'm good, like, like most of us do, like that are in this community. Like, we have been reading the books, we're taking the courses, we're like, following people like Robin Clark, that are helping us with, you know, navigating all these challenges. But and I'm like, and I'm actually pretty good with my anger. Like, I feel I don't feel like I'm like, unjustly angry or, or like that I can't voice it. But it was with a partner. And I'm sure a lot of women can relate to this, I was with a partner that was definitely not comfortable with my anger. So, you know, and I'm, and I'm being I say, pretty responsible around, like, how I'm addressing things, but sometimes, like, I'm very direct, and I'll be like, I am not happy. I am very angry right now. And I would say when I was angry about and every time I would be shut down just absolutely. Like, you know, I equate it to like somebody throwing like a blanket, like, if there's a fire going and throws a blanket on you, like they wanted out immediately, like not okay, don't you dare talk to me like that. This is so disrespectful. You're right. And I'm like, and actually, I started to believe that, like, if you if you're hearing this from your partner you love and you're trying to work out these differences, you are in conflict. And I'm hearing like, my anger is not good. And it's like, I need to like shut up. And I know, he would never say those words, but like, and then he would leave the room like he can't handle it. Like how my parents never talked like this to each other and all this other stuff. So I'm thinking, I'm not doing something right here. So that I think is very common.

Robin Clark | It's extremely common men have a really difficult time with women's anger. But, you know, said another way is that your relationship was based on the dominator model. Yeah. Or he thought so. Right. So he thinks he's above and he thinks he can set the tone and the rules and when you're like, hey, buddy, actually, no, I have needs and we're gonna we're going to need to have a win win strategy meeting hear about this because I'm not happy and I'm going to need you to be able to bend me and meet me halfway. He's like, Oh, hell no, it's not gonna go like that. And so he becomes more grandiose and tries to push you down to remain in what's comfortable and familiar for him.

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Robin Clark | I think one of the hardest things. I'll speak for myself, but I think this is true for many women. One of the hardest things to understand is that male gender socialization teaches men to get their sense of identity from having someone to dominate. And that person is going to be their partner. It's going to be people at work. If they haven't the kind of job where they can sort of, you know, career advancement themselves enough to place where they have people, they can push back on, push down on. But it's really home homes where it happens. And we're not taught that we're taught, you know, the prince is going to come and he's gonna be charming and lovely. And it's going to just be roses and sunshine. And I think what a lot of women find out, especially in midlife, is that ain't true and the sweet man they may have married in their 20s has evolved now into a very different person, as have we. And men who haven't divested themselves from their internalized patriarchy, love continuing that model. And for those of us that are growing and more and more into our power, it's very threatening, and they don't like it, and they'll squash it. They'll do almost anything to squash it. And it's our job to be like, that's their shit. You know, and because you're talking about I almost took it, and I almost believe that I'm being too much, right? Because it's so compelling, because it's so similar to the exact kind of parenting messages we received as girls, whether it was from our parents, or teachers or whomever, that it's so seductive, you've heard it so many times, and it takes a lot to be like, no, I'm not a child. This isn't a parent child dynamic. I will not bend to you in that way. It has to be when when or this isn't gonna work.

Robin Ducharme | Yes. And the other, you know, you talk a lot about the good girl, healing or good girl. So many of us are taught this even from our mothers who, you know, you give these example about your parents right now your mom was like Martha Stewart, your dad was Bob Vila. Like I really like and you know, what's really funny? Robin, you and I are the same age. We're both born in 1977. And we both have

Robin Clark | The same name. 

Robin Ducharme | Yes, I know. Like. 

Robin Clark | Are you a Taurus also? 

Robin Ducharme | No. But I could relate to this, right? Because, like, my mom was a very, very strong person. And so as my dad, but I could see the ways that she would change her own behavior. Because, you know, oh, my dad's home. Okay. And you make this you said, you say the things that were happening in your own house, like you wait for your your mom would make this nice meal. You're waiting for your dad to come home. Our tree comes home. Okay, wait, now dad's having a beer. You guys are all waiting. You're like, hello, dinner's ready. And it's like, what are we doing? Like the prince or king just arrived? And he needs to take a little moment here. And, and these behaviors are like entrenched. Right? 

Robin Clark | Very

Robin Ducharme | And, and your mom's demeanor would change. Right? So she's, can you talk a little bit more about that Robin, and how I want to talk about good girl and how it's like how those behaviors and how those beliefs really shape shape us as girls and women, and then how that affects us in our lives?

Robin Clark | Sure, I mean, I think good girl, if we think think about it, from our own perspective as children, I think there's a few different ways that we're taught. We're taught directly and indirectly, and one of them is modeling. You know what you're just speaking to where I'm watching my mom, and you're watching her all watching her mom's? And we're just watching how they do their life. You know, do they? Will they leave the house without lipstick? Do they say things like, Well, what will they think, you know, will they do the opinions they speak? When it's just the two of you alone? Do those remain the same opinions when their friend is around when their husband is around? Like you're just watching this whole thing about what it is to be a woman? Do we adjust ourselves? Do we hold true to ourselves? And and what are the ways that we're adjusting to be pleasing or attractive? Or, you know, it just watching this whole thing? So it's just role modeling? Right? That's one. That's one way we're learning. Another is in their dynamic, right? So you're speaking to how, you know, I'm waiting for dinner till 730. And I'm like, are we gonna need already?  Kids always wanting to like five. 

Robin Ducharme | Right.

Robin Clark | I'm watching their dynamic, how they talk to each other? How arguments happen, who ends up being the one that bends to make things work ultimately, who, how do they handle money? How do we make big life choices? Who makes those choices? Really?

Robin Ducharme | Oh, my gosh, that's a really good point. Like I remember this, I just want to I didn't mean to interrupt you. But I was just thinking about that. In my family. It's like, I remember at least three times, and this sounds frequent. But it was like growing up, it was like, my dad would come home and like no word of lie. He'd be like, so I just found a new house for us. And like, What the hell are you talking about? Like, my mom was like, like, he was literally I was shopping right? Without my mom, right? And then we're moving within like a month or two months. Like we are literally moving across the city. And because he found a new house and it was an upgrade. It was a bigger house a nicer house, but she wasn't part of that decision making. Unbelievable, right? 

Robin Clark | Right. So, so fast forward 40 years and your partner's like you're not allowed to have a voice here. Where did that where did you learn that? You know,

Robin Ducharme | Wow, yeah,

Robin Clark | This like this. It's like silly, like silly putty and it just like repeats and it repeats. It doesn't exactly repeat because all of us are in here, trying to whittle away and like break down the cycles. But it takes a lot, right? That patterning of can you just imagine that? Imagine the audacity, where you just unilaterally make life choices for an entire group of people without ever once talking to them, and it doesn't even register you that something's off. Right? 

Robin Ducharme | Because he thought, oh, I'm like, we're like, this is a nicer house. Are you kidding me right now. And I was like, crying, it was like giving all my friends like shampoo and conditioner to say goodbye, like, parting gifts, because we're moving like 5-50 minutes away from where we grew up right.

Robin Clark | Right? Totally. So your watch. So it's so it's direct, just watching your mom, if you're a girl, and you know, your boy, probably your dad, but whatever, you're just watching your parents individually, and then you're watching their dynamic, right? And the dynamic teaches you so much about how patriarchy works and your role within it. And then there's how they're directly treating you. Right, you know, their direct parenting, and I think within that, you could say, how they parent when they're alone, and also when the other ones there. And that's probably very different, the more patriarchal it is probably the more different that's going to be. But you know, every family systems a little bit different, you know, like, are you allowed to say no, will your no's be heard? Are you allowed to have an opinion that's different than your parents? If they want to sit at the table and talk about, you know, the news the whole time? Do they include you in the conversation? Are they open to talking about things you might want also? Or do they just expect you to defer to them? Like, what are they teaching you in these moments, it's all teaching moments, it are you getting pushed into lots of house chores, but your brother can just like, sit around and hang out. But maybe he's being drilled about, like being athletic, and you're not. Or maybe you're just you're watching these, like dials be turned. And it's all all it's all going in, in addition to then, you know, looking at movies and societal messages, it's just sort of like a finishing touch on the whole thing.

Robin Ducharme | Really is, so you say like our job, or like, what we, what we are, what we're here to do like, is to, we want to break the agreements that we were taught, because these are either going to be implicit or explicit agreements, right? So these agreements are like love means self abandonment, we want to break that agreement. Right, 

Robin Clark | Deeply 

Robin Ducharme | Abandoning yourself, you know, bowing down to whatever, these people over yourself, right? You want to break the agreement that compromise that compromise yourself and your happiness for others, which is very similar to what we like that self abandonment, their happiness is more important than mine. And if I compromise, the things will be better. No. 

Robin Clark | No. 

Robin Ducharme | Be loyal to your parents, I think those pretty much sums it up. But it's, it's really putting other needs others needs above yourself.

Robin Clark | Yeah, I mean, I think, in a sense, those are all the same agreement. In some ways, you're saying the new agreement, is that I operate my life through I hold on to my personhood, like my full personhood, I'm not slicing off any little part of myself, my essential self, to make anything work with anyone. It doesn't matter, that the clerk at a store that's trying to sell you something you don't want, and you just buy it to shut them up. It's like, we're not doing that, you know, like, just say, please leave me alone. You know, I'm not, you know, no, right with a friendship, a friend who's like, expects you to be there for them. But when you need them there, they just won't, you know, or they won't reciprocate in certain ways that are just important to you. And then of course, all relationships have been turned in, there's different circumstances going on. So it can't always be an exact match. But in general, you feel like people are showing up equally and holding the container equally with you, and you're not having to mute yourself, adjust your core values, or sent cater to them in order to make things work. We're just not doing that anymore. But it's so much easier said than done. Because everybody has been indoctrinated to patriarchy and everybody is expecting you, especially if you're in a female body, to adjust yourself for them. This includes other women. Everyone's in on it, right? And so for you to say, hey, I'm actually going to playing a new game. I'm just not doing that anymore. I'm doing Win-Win relationships I'm doing staying in integrity with myself. I'm doing truth telling with my own self so I can bring authentic needs forward. And that's how I'm going to be living my life. Like you are, that's really different. And it makes people who are deeper into good girl and the traditional way of operating uncomfortable and I live in one of the most liberal places I live in the Bay Area. Right and you think it's like the land of everyone's pushing against norms and they are to an extent but even still, this is like a deeper norm. And as you as we pull ourselves out of this one, it really changes your life. 

Robin Ducharme | Yes

Robin Clark | Just does 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah that's the other thing.

Robin Clark | But you get to have yourself. 

Robin Ducharme | And you talked about that too, right? Like during, during, I love the fact that a lot of your workshops, there's q&a with the community that are actually taking it live. And I learned so much even just from listening to these women ask the questions and you know, helping with guidance and answers. And one of the women asked that question, it's like, what, I am afraid that this is really going to change my dynamics with with my, my mom, for instance, or my friends like, and you're like, yeah, and it doesn't have to be nice, may not be a negative God's like, you know, but it could be it might, your friendships are going to change, like things might change if people expect you. Like, you get this example, Robert, have one friend of yours that lives outside of Bay area, where you live, and you were constantly going there to see her, right. And you were like, This doesn't feel like equitable, it doesn't feel this doesn't feel right. I want there to be shared, driving, or take, we were both sharing effort towards keeping our friendship going and time together. And she was like, when you talk to her about it, she was like, no, I don't want to drive. Like, it's great that you're coming here. And I love seeing you. But I'm not willing to make that drive in reciprocity, right? You were like, well, you had to have that conversation, because it was not aligned with where you want it to be at a good example of things having to change.

Robin Clark | It had to change it. Yeah. And she doubled down on that she was like, it doesn't spark joy doesn't give me joy to have to drive 40 minutes to have tea with you. And I was like, that's, this is going the wrong direction this conversation you know, she's that sort of thing. But I'm like, hey, I really appreciate her honesty, I'm sharing my, my needs and my desire, and she's sharing her capacity and her limits. And this is one of those great moments, we have to learn how to navigate where her needs. And my needs were not aligning anymore. And also the way she was saying it was really bothersome to me that friendship ended ultimately, you know, after more discussion, but like, nonetheless, it just was like, okay, we're at an impasse here. I want a reciprocal relationship. And she's like, I want you to come visit me. And that's it. 

Robin Ducharme | Right

Robin Clark | Like, Well, okay, then, right. And so that's just a very, it's just so clear, right? But the example you gave about, he's allowed to be mad, and he can tell me how things go. But I'm not allowed to say this, it doesn't work for me, the same thing. 

Robin Ducharme | Right

Robin Clark | It's just like, we reach these moments with people where you're like, Okay, we walked on a path together for a period of time, and now our paths diverge. And I think this like till death do us part, which I really think is part of, you know, patriarchal entrapment we need, it's, it's deep, that we think that if we're close to someone, they'll always be there, and everyone's on their own path. And we're, it's a blessing to be able to walk with them when we walk with them, but the person whose path you're always going to be on is yourself. That's the path you can't get off. And that's the path we're taught to stray from. And I think we're all learning in this work that nothing good comes from leaving ourselves. The goodness, it's difficult, it's hard one is when we can really stay true to ourselves and say, okay, if this doesn't work for you to meet me where I need to be met, then I wish you well. And then to be willing to, like, see that through in whatever ways we need to.

Robin Ducharme | And that's, that's hard, though. So so hard to do. But like you said, it's for your own, like, that's loving yourself and like honoring yourself, and it is yeah, I'm going to okay, something another huge learning for me like lightning bolt. I'm telling you was so last, so this weekend, I took your courses. So that was fantastic. I was like in school we can and I loving it. The weekend before I had received like, the most disturbing it was, you know, we're going to the finances right now. And it's not pretty at all like he's trying to well, he is doing everything in his power to take advantage and be a taker and be a greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy. And I was so upset that, like first I was really angry. Okay, like, when I read this document, I got steaming mad. And then this is interesting, because you talk about this. And then I switched to being incredibly sad. Like, I was I was crying for like a full day, right thinking like, how could this be like, where am I and I and when I reflected on what happened and you talk about this in the course around women are taught like because anger is not sustainable, it's not at all healthy. You shouldn't have it. We switch the feeling from anger to sadness and it like and then it turns into this internal shaming almost. Like I was I was sad about what he was doing to me, right? He was like, um, like he's trying to hurt me. But I was also it was was like what a how to my talk, how do I explain it? You know what I'm saying? Right? My almost immediately to sadness, and then and then after I took your course, like I said, the lightning bolt moment, I after took the anger. I'm like, oh my God, I totally did that. And I've done that before where it's like, I switched the anger into sadness, but actually, no, I'm not sad about this. I'm fucking mad. And I'm very angry. And I'm still angry. Because it's like it this anger is fueling me to actually act differently that I would have before. Now that is the best lesson in this for me anyways, like, Robin, you have to stay angry. Like, this is not right. Like he is violating you on every level. And you can't allow it.

Robin Clark | Right? But good girl would say I feel like the sadness. It's what's acceptable, it's easier. It's non threatening. Because when women are sad, you're no one's really out there, you know, kicking ass and taking names when they're sad. When we're sad, we kind of collapse. We like you know, crawl on the sofa. Really, as you know, it comes more internalized. Well, that's safe, because she's not going to bother anyone. She can just go on be sad, and she'll leave us alone. Anger is not like that at all. Anger gives you Yeah, right and changes things a bunch of pushes against the status quo. And you're like, This is bullshit. I'm changing this. And I have the fire to see this through. Right. And that's why girls are taught not to be angry because we're being taught to fall in line. And I think so much of coming back into our power. I've had moments different that similar to yourself, where it's, you're just like, oh, I can't believe this is happening. Right? And you have to find the fire to like actually

Robin Ducharme | Keep it going

Robin Clark | See through to the point where your fire is strong enough to not let someone dominate you. 

Robin Ducharme | Right

Robin Clark | Right. Because if you if you because if you collapsed, he would just steamroll you and he's expecting to be able to do so. And you're not this time dude.

Robin Ducharme | He's expecting it. Yeah. Because I've in the past, I've relented and I've been like, and then I go back to the good girl. Am I being loving? Is this really the person you want to be Robin? You know, you're generous. You're kind, bullshit, like I am all those things, but you're actually trying to hurt me and I'm not going to allow it anymore.

Robin Clark | Right? And what is kind any how, if it doesn't include being kind to yourself, that's not kindness. That's self abandonment. 

Robin Ducharme | Exactly. 

Robin Clark | That's not it's like there's so much gaslighting for women about what it is to be a good woman be what it is to be loving is so selfless. And we say it like that's a compliment, but it isn't.

Robin Ducharme | It isn't. 

Robin Clark | It is not to be able to hold true to yourself while also holding someone else in warm regard is great, but when they start trying to dominate you, disrespect you steal from you extract from you. We're done. We gotta like, you know, like 

Robin Ducharme | We're so done

Robin Clark | So does like some growling and some like nips more whatever you got to do to be like, you can't take from me it's not gonna go like that.

Robin Ducharme | You're absolutely right, Robin. I'm like, I'm telling you, I learned so much I love you. Like, I'm like, I really needed. I really needed to hear this from Robin this weekend.

Robin Clark | The therapy session you need right now, for your life. Just to give you a like, green light, like you're on the right track. You should be mad. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah I am mad. Yeah. So let's talk about you go through a lot of tools, which is like that we need to learn this, right? Because we don't want to be the volcano that's erupting. And we certainly sure as heck don't want to be suppressing our anger. So you give the example like you give a lot of examples. But like you, kay, let's talk about like, like the steps, right? You've got like the stop, drop and roll. Right? And that when would you use drop, drop and roll? Where this job drop and act? Right? 

Robin Clark | Well I was joking, you know, because at least in American schools, drop, drop and roll was like a thing that we were all taught in?

Robin Ducharme | Oh, us to 

Robin Clark | About fire, right? We were to Okay, great. So it's just like, it's already in people, right? This like, boom, boom, boom, yeah. Okay, so it's when you notice something's off, I think we have a, like a check engine light inside of ourselves, so to speak, right? An instinct and knowing and it's talking to us all the time. You know, you put on a clothing item that feels right to you. And there's like this sense of satisfaction. You're like, Oh, that feels right. Even if yesterday, you put it on it didn't say you're like, oh, that feels right. There's, oh, this tastes this was nourishing to me. You're getting feedback all the time from inside you. About your needs. Well, this is also true when something's off. That we have we have an instinct that's like, huh, that's like the very first one. It's just like, and then it's that's annoying. That's frustrating, like, oh, it's really bothered, you know, at all cases as women, we're taught to ignore all that. Yeah, we're taught we're so gaslit when we brought things for it, that doesn't feel good. I don't like oh, this person is talking to me. They're being mean to me. Like I think they took my homework assignment like, ever. They didn't do that. You shouldn't be difficult. No, no. up so we so because that's how we were often spoken to, that's what we'll do to ourselves will say, I'm probably just making a big deal out of nothing you should give people the benefit of the doubt that's probably not it that I'm saying, no, no, trust your instinct, your instinct isn't talking for no reason, even if and how your intuiting isn't quite right, you're not getting this for no reason. So pull over, right, stop, drop, so to speak. Like, go inside and listen to what this part of you was saying to you, like really, journal, go for a long walk, go for a walk, that's long enough that by the time you're clear about what's being said to you, book, an extra therapy session, call a friend, do whatever you got to do to be like, hmm, something's happening inside me. And I need to figure out what that is. So I can be clear what my needs are here, right? This people skip over this, they'll just be like, I'm frustrated that and then they don't really know what they're actually saying to people, right? You have to take a minute, whatever that might be. For you. It could take 10 seconds could be two days, we don't know where you're like, Okay, I'm in sync with myself. I know what's going on. I know what I need. And then, you know, roll act. Take action. What do you need to call this person? Do you realize you're being overcharged for a bill did whatever, whatever, whatever, like take action and correct it? And in some cases, like the one you're dealing with, it's not going to be a one action, we're done here. Oh, no, it's going to be a whole process, right? Where you're like, okay, and whatever support you need to fortify yourself to be able to see that process through. So we love we love when it's a simple, you know, verizon overcharged you moment, like, that's easy. It's a phone call, we're done. Right? But it often isn't. And often, it's, Hey, friend, you said this thing to me, it didn't land? Well, for me, let's talk that through in the future. Can you not speak to me that way? I'd prefer this instead. And then you see that you gauge the receptivity? Because they don't have to change for you? They may say no. Or they may say yes, and then go ahead and do it again. Or that, you know, in the, you're gonna have to deal with that. We have to find up to see things through. But it's really difficult to do when we're one not acknowledging how wise our own inner knowing and our own intuition and our felt sense is about telling us what's going on. We're sensitive. It's useful, we need to trust that instinct. And then but we have to learn how to listen to it. And that's where I think we might need some help. I think, you know, having a therapist having a women's circle, having your good girlfriends you can process with can really help you sort through because sometimes our first instinct isn't, it's not always right, sometimes. But not always. Sometimes it takes a peel back a couple layers, you're like, oh, this thing underneath, it takes a minute, right? And then then we're gonna change things.

Robin Ducharme | You give, you give an example earlier around, when you're in the, I don't know if it sort of be the stop or the drops. But like, let's say like, things are just not not good. And you're, you're like, okay, I need I need to take a break. I need to do something that's just going to help me out for a bit. Like, okay, you watch a couple episodes of your favorite show, and just like chill, okay. And but if you're on like, five or 6,7,8 episodes, and you're just on the couch, like hours and hours later, you're probably dissociating, you're probably numbing This isn't this isn't gonna help you with the action stage right?

Robin Clark | No if you're like, well, you know, this Sunday and we will just have a glass rose. You're like girl, get up, go for a walk. Like do you It's fine for an hour. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine if you have to, if you just need like a soothing, something soothing. Yeah, fine, but you can't stay there. 

Robin Ducharme | Right

Robin Clark | Right. I mean, if I were to reverse engineer that same kind of moment, the better approach I think would be to one just check on on your basics have eaten because that's often not helping right you know, we're blue blood sugar have I exercised today? Have I am I hydrated? Is there like anything pressing I'm not dealing with just get to like basics that could be like 30 minutes and then go for a walk, go to the gym, go do something get in your body. Because the instinct is happening in there or like grab your journal and just you know, like almost like morning pages right for three pages till you get to the end and figure out what's what am I actually annoyed about? Okay, here's the kind of buzzkill sometimes it's us. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah

Robin Clark | You know, we're the problem.

Robin Ducharme | Of course, there's always two people and stuff like it's always the other person.

Robin Clark | It's not sometimes that sort of saying, first instinct that they're bothering me might be true, but maybe we we invited them to do something that now we don't like the result. Sure you're gonna need to talk to them, but we have to own our part in it too, like we have to look at like where we are. We are We are part of the annoyance that we you look at your bank account, and you're like, I don't like what's happening there. It's like yeah, how many times did you go out to eat last week? Like what are you doing? Get off all these subscriptions? Like what do you let's be responsible about money so you don't feel scared and mad at yourself? Whatever the case may be just as simple example, how do we own our part of dynamics as well. And so you know, it takes some nuance in there. And we have to, we have to remove the like, shame, blame, you're doing it wrong, because that will really jam us up and just be like, it's all just information and how can we be? How can we use this? To learn how to operate in a more mature and self loving manner?

Robin Ducharme | Yes. So you know, the other thing you talk about, we don't have a lot of time left Robin, but I did want to talk about this because this principle of, or the archetype of the maiden, right, yes, how there's, there are still many patriarchal based relationships going on in the world. I mean, it's, it's not going away anytime soon. But we're working on it, right. But it's about how we end up in this maiden place. And men want us to be in that place. And I loved this, I loved what you said around. Like, when you are when you're tethered to somebody, you know, like, that's that maiden dominating relationship. Like, let's say, like, financially, you don't have your own bank account. That and your partner is like, you know, you're financially reliant on that person. We've seen this time and time again, right? You are you are physically financially tethered to your partner. You're in that maiden position, like you're relying on that person for your finances. So tell us about the Maiden archetype. And then how, yeah, how we get out of that position?

Robin Clark | Yeah, there's, we need to get out of that position. We all do. So I think it's taken from Jungian in psychology, I learned about it through reading that amazing book, Women Who Run With Wolves, which is like one of the just like women's wisdom bucks, right? I don't even know if you could say read it. It's like a tomb, you know, you're just like it right? 

Robin Ducharme | It's really good.

Robin Clark | Right. And so there's the stages of the process that women go through in our journey of growth. Maiden, mother, or queen, and then crone and patriarchy wants all women to stay maidens. And it's like, think about yourself when you were like, 23, right? You're like, going out in the world, and your eyes are open, and you don't know how things work exactly. You're operating entirely from your own conditioning, you're naive and a really sweet way. It's innocence. It's like innocence, you just don't know that you don't know. And you shouldn't. It's not. It's like you're young. And maybe you don't know how to read the signs and red flags, but you're just looking for experiences, you're in a place of discovery, and you're quick to hand your power over because you don't even know that there's a different way yet. And people are and but what you don't know is that other people can it's like a target on your back, they can see that you're a maiden, right? And people your own age, this is not a big deal. But people that are older, will take advantage of that countless stories of women being pursued by you know, 20 year old, older men, and the men absolutely know why they're pursuing that young woman. But the young woman doesn't yet, yet. Right? So there's a lot of like, you're walking yourself right into a bunch of hard lessons that at the time, you don't know that they're going to be it's later when you're like, say 47-6, like we are now looking back on it. And you're like, Oh, my God, girl, no, right? And you would just do everything differently, but you didn't know then. Patriarchy wants you to stay that way forever. Because someone's how does like a mediocre not particularly mature, not wildly successful man experience a sense of superiority in his life? Well, he's got to find someone who's less together than he is. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah

Robin Clark | Maidens 

Robin Ducharme | Wow

Robin Clark | He needs maidens, right. And so when women leave that stage, and they go into mother, which means to be mother of yourself, or queen, whatever you want to use for that middle archetype, and you're like, hey, I learned some lessons. And they were hard. I've got the scars to show up. But I've integrated them. I've learned I've learned my own ground, my own worth my own power, my own voice, I can hold myself, I'm not looking for you to hold me, I hold me. You can meet me here, to the extent that you're holding yourself but you're I'm not looking for you to like be my parent. This isn't an we did that I'm not doing that anymore. When women switch men who were getting their identity from having this like young, differing woman freak out. And that's kind of why they're sort of like, I don't know how it is in your life. But my observation so if we 37 and 45 everybody gets divorced. Not everyone but so many people get divorced. 

Robin Ducharme | There's a heck of a lot of it 

Robin Clark | Because of this switch. Because there's this invitation as women grow, will their partner grow with them? And some do. It's not always graceful, but they will. And then a whole other genre. The men are like, Absolutely not. And then they become the cliche, 50 year old guy who's pursuing 30 year olds. It's like I mean, then they just do that. And they're just filtering back into that pattern. And then there's the rest of us that are like, No, we actually want to grow more and more into our power until later on, Crone, where it's just an even deeper integration. And I think it's, I think it's just really important to name within that. It's so new that women have the ability and the laws to be like to be able to financially back up what I just said, 

Robin Ducharme | Yes

Robin Clark | You know, we were, we are really the first generation of girls who were born into a world where we just assume you can get a credit card and assume you can buy property and assume that you can have a bank account, it's new.

Robin Ducharme | It is new. And this is the first, this is the first generation where women girls are out graduating boys in university. It's like, you know, things are changing in the world. And it's like, I'm so happy to see it. But you're right, this is not this is all so, so new.

Robin Clark | It's so new. We take it for granted, but it's new. And what I want is for all women to win, you know, you got to go through maidenj it's part of the process, but to actually do that next step of coming into mother or queen coming into their power, their sovereignty, as I like to talk about it. Yeah. And that's going to change everything about our lives. Because if your lives were created on a maiden Foundation, when you switch into the, you know, sovereign queen, mother self, if things are going to change, and some people will come with you, so people won't, and we have to accept that. But it's, that's not the point. The point is, do we have an intact, loving, whole, and like healthy relationship with ourselves? And that's, that's the gift. We're taught that that isn't what matters that having someone else is what matters? And I really just want to reverse engineer that what matters most is that you have yourself, 

Robin Ducharme | Yes 

Robin Clark | that you can take so you people say that. But I think there's a process we go through where we learn to actually embody that. And once you have it, it's so hard won, you're not going to give it up for anyone. You just won't

Robin Ducharme | That's where I'm at. And I I'm working with an amazing therapist, and this is what she is helping me with is is coming back in, Is that Queen sovereign. A whole the whole woman, whole woman.  

Robin Clark | Yeah. 

Robin Ducharme | Right. That's where and that way, going forward. It's like we can and we will have relationships that that meet us and that are equal. It's like, No, you can't take I'm not going to give my myself to you like parts of myself to you. I will give you my love. I will give so much but you're not going to take me.

Robin Clark | Right. And you're like, wait, you were going to control the finances. And you thought I was going to do that. Oh, oh, no. Right? Like, that's a choice a younger version of us might have made but at this stage, you know, the cost of that and you're like, never again, not happening. Yeah, no. ,

Robin Ducharme | Okay so you've got this amazing new course coming up, which I I'm like, I gotta take this Date Like a Feminist.

Robin Clark | Yes, right Date Like a Feminist is, it's a game changer, because I feel like that's the missing piece. So many relationships would never even happen if women knew how to date with their own needs in mind. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah. 

Robin Clark | And they knew how to have that people based on their own needs and standards and values. And if women had that part of the piece down, yeah, it's a lot of learning. But you're not going to get so invested with people that aren't a good fit, because you actually know how to figure out if someone is a good fit. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah

Robin Clark | We're not taught any of that. And so I just basically took 25 years of my dating experience of doing everything the wrong way. Okay.

Robin Ducharme | Perfect

Robin Clark | Do this in a more empowering way. And all through my 40s. That's what I've been practicing. And like, it works. I mean, relationships, I would have stayed in for three or four years in my 30s are done now. And it's kind of three dates. Okay. It's just like, okay, I can see what's going on here. I can see where we fit and don't I wish you well, you know.

Robin Ducharme | That's great. Okay, so when does that course start?

Robin Clark | On March 9, okay. It goes for eight weeks on Saturday mornings, people can attend live or just get the recordings later. But like, you can see on the testimonials on the page. It's like really eye opening for him because we never learned this stuff. We just learned. Does he like me? Perfect. 

Robin Ducharme | You're going on these maiden in us would be going on these dates going like why? Like, I wonder if he thinks I'm attractive. And like, oh, no, like, Did I say something wrong? Like it's all about him? And him like no. 

Robin Clark | Yeah, like, well, he's cute. And I hope he likes me. And that's it rather than like,

Robin Ducharme | Do I really like this person? Do I feel like yes, it's like turning it all around.

Robin Clark | For me, like where do we align? Where do we not where his values like? Do we want the same things in relationship? Do we want the same things in life? 

Robin Ducharme | Right

Robin Clark | Right and that's a completely different way of operating. So yeah, that's coming. I do it once a year and it's really really amazing to watch women just like we're New Oh, okay, how different dating is for them once they have these skills? 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah, wow, well, I'm just I just loved our conversation and like I just can't

Robin Clark | Same 

Robin Ducharme | I'm gonna continue learning from you and hey, we're for new friends you know, robbing from 1977 like mine.

Robin Clark | What a trip

Robin Ducharme | I'm going to end this conversation with a blessing. It's all based on all the things that I've learned from you this week. So, may we release the good girl mentality, regain our power, and instead focus on being good to ourselves, making space for emotional care and well being. May we befriend our anger, may we learn to express our anger in healthy ways that will support ourselves mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. And may we create nourishing lives and relationships by coming home to our true selves, and choosing to express our authentic sovereign self to others. May we come home to ourselves in all ways. So thank you, Robin Clark, for being with us. 

Robin Clark | Beautiful. Hey, it's my absolute pleasure.

Robin Ducharme | Thank you so much for listening. Visit realloveready.com to continue learning with us. Please rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the tools and guidance you need to form more loving relationships and create positive change in your life. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude to those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well. Many blessings and much love.