Jessica Fern - Polysecure: Exploring CNM

This week on Let’s Talk Love, Robin sits down with Jessica Fern. Jessica is the acclaimed author of Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy and Polywise: A Deeper Dive into Navigating Open Relationships. With a wealth of experience in the field of couples therapy and a deep understanding of attachment theory, Jessica brings a fresh perspective to the complexities of human connections. 

Jessica shares her experience working with clients in non-traditional relationships and helps normalize the discussion around Consensual Nonmonogamy (CNM). Robin and Jessica explore common misconceptions, fears, and principles of CNM relationships. Jessica also discusses her personal journey with CNM and living with multiple partners.

This insightful conversation challenges listeners' perspectives and provides a deeper understanding of diverse relationship structures. Whether you're single, in a committed relationship, or exploring alternative relationship structures, this episode provides valuable wisdom and actionable advice for fostering deeper connections in your life.

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Learn more with Jessica Fern:

Website: https://www.jessicafern.com/

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Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Today I had a very interesting, thought provoking conversation with Jessica Fern. Jessica is a psychotherapist, public speaker, and trauma and Relationship Expert and the author of Polysecure and Polywise. In her international private practice, Jessica works with individuals, couples and people in multiple partner relationships, helping them to embody new possibilities in life and love. This conversation was a huge learning experience for me. I hope you listen with an open mind and open heart and walk away with a greater perspective on this often controversial topic. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. Hello, everyone and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm so happy to be joined by our guest today, Jessica Fern. Jessica we invited you at work and I just want to thank you so much for being with me today. 

Jessica Fern | Yeah, I'm excited to be here with you.

Robin Ducharme | I of course I've got your bio in front of me and I've read two of your books. But I would love it if you can just tell our audience from your words through your words. What about your about your practice and your work and what you're actually currently working on

Jessica Fern | So I am a psychotherapist and I'm an author and most people know me for my books Polysecure and Polywise. So as a therapist, I focus on attachment and trauma. But I have a specialty in working with people in non traditional relationships, non monogamous relationships, polyamorous relationships. Yeah, and most passionate about is my next book, but we can talk about that later.

Robin Ducharme | Oh, that's exciting. I want to know now but okay, we;ll wait.So I really have enjoyed learning from you. As we were preparing for this podcast, I work with one of my best friends. And we read books together. And we talk about our learnings. And you know, our biggest inquiries, and I just I love having that collaboration. So tell me about Polysecure? Because did you did you term you did, like bring together, you know, attachment?

Jessica Fern | And non monogamy

Robin | You did. This is a term that you have coined, which I think is just brilliant Jessica, because you're teaching people how to have secure relationships around polyamory

Jessica | So before the book Polysecure, there wasn't anything really out there, there wasn't a book out there on attachment and non monogamy that brought those two together. And unfortunately, most of their resources, either just didn't address non monogamy at all, or maybe even pathologized it. So many people who are practicing or, you know, identify as non monogamous would want to learn about attachment, and then they couldn't find themselves in that literature. And they would get very discouraged. So that was sort of one of the intentions was this is such an important theory for people that are having multiple love partnership relationships. And, you know, I think those two things needed to be brought together.

Robin | Exactly. So share with share with us your background around getting into this field of consensual non monogamy. Was it through your life experience and then identifying with other people around you? Or how did it turn out to you, because 75% of your practice is working with people with consensual non monogamy, right?

Jessica | That's right. Yeah, that's right. The majority of my practice is people that are non monogamous. It really came to me, but it was both personal, and then it became professional. But it wasn't something that I was clearly like, oh, this is what I'm doing. And now I'm going to make it my profession. I was living and working in Boulder, Colorado as a psychotherapist. And I've told this story other places too, if people have heard it, and it was literally in one week. All the couples I was working with brought up that they were curious about opening up their relationship. 

Robin | Wow. 

Jessica | And so right. It was like and it just felt like it landed in my lap. And I was like, Okay, I know about this. I've done it myself. But professionally, I didn't feel like I knew what to do with it unnecessarily. So I like quickly, like, ordered all the books, they said they were reading, you know, started to do my homework and look to see if there was any certificates or anything for practitioners at that time, there wasn't the only one or two resources I found weren't very great. And so I had to kind of figure it out as I went with my clients.

Robin | When I was, like, I have to say, Jessica, I am just so new to this. And this is what it comes to everything we do in our work with Real Love Ready. It's all about expanding our awareness and our perspectives and learning. Because it's, I don't have people close to me that are in consensual, non monogamous relationships. So for me, it was like, I really want to know more. And obviously, there are so many people that are doing this, but not in my circle. Right. And you may, but it's happening, of course, and it's growing, it's growing. Right. Jessica? Would you say that is true? Or is it people are more people are coming out?

Jessica | More people are publicly doing it. I think this has been happening, you know, forever. And statistically, we know that people cheat at a very high frequency. So that's happening. But yes, it's sort of growing, that people are coming out that this is a public identity that they have.

Robin | So there there was, to me, it was like, and you actually talked about this, even for people that are interested and curious, it's like you have to it's almost like changing your your your your own reality around and how and the worldview, you talked about how it's changing, you are gonna have to step in a new paradigm. And it seems like almost when I was reading I'm like all this new language, there's, there's so many words or terms that I was like, I don't know what that means. So can you share with us, for instance, like some of the terms that people would use if they're in a consensual, non monogamous relationship, like some of the ways they would describe that relationship and what those mean, like CNM is like an umbrella term, right?

Jessica | Yes, so CNM, consensual, non monogamy, people also use ethical non monogamy. That's the umbrella term for you know, some version of practicing having multiple sexual or romantic partners, and everyone knows about it. It's not a secret. That's why it's consensual or ethical. And within that umbrella, there's many styles so people can practice more of a monogamish. You know, occasionally I have a monogamous partner. But occasionally on a business trip, one of us might have a hookup or together we might play with someone every once in a while and bring in a third. There's people that are Swingers, there are people that are polyamorous where they're really making full on love based partnership or attachment based relationships with more than one person. There's the terms of solo polyamory or open marriage. So there's lots of different ways that people do this. 

Robin | There's so many, there's so many variations. Yeah,

Jessica | Even one person might have one kind of style with one partner and a different style that they're practicing with another partner. So it's not just even within, you know, the pairing of people.

Robin | Yeah. I appreciated you sharing your own personal journey in both books around. 

Jessica | Yeah.

Robin | Like, their struggles that you faced, you know, you tell the story about how when you were telling your own parents about coming in, like, this is what you'd like, Okay. Can you tell us about that story, Jessica? Because I thought that was your mom, like your mother in law? Sorry. But she started to cry and was just and she was she was looking back on her own experience in the 60s, right and going like this, this may not be safe or something.

Jessica | Exactly. I had very different experiences telling my parents cause and my in laws. So my parents have been married and divorced several times to multiple spouses. And so when I told them, they were just like, oh, maybe that's what we should have all done. 

Robin | Wow

Jessica | Monogamy wasn't necessarily working for us, right? Whereas when we told Dave, you know, my husband at that time, we told his parents my in laws, my mother in law did she started to cry, because to her, she was so afraid. It just meant divorce. And she was, you know, understandably like she was connected back to seeing in the 60s and it was like these key parties and sort of these suburban, like wife swap parties that that's what she knew it as. It was very threatening, threatening thing thinking that we were doing something akin to that.

Robin | Yes, And so, yeah,

Jessica | Go ahead.

Robin | How can you can you explain just for those that are listening that are wanting this right for themselves for your partnership and So, how do you coach your clients on telling others? Like, how did you have that conversation with your parents, with your with your in laws at the time around, like, educating them on what your approach would be where it's going to be?

Jessica | Right? So it's a very personal thing. And you know, not everyone who's doing this is has the privilege to come out or needs to come out. But usually when I'm coaching people, we discuss, like, when is it your private life? And when is it becoming secrecy that could be damaging certain relationships where you feel like you're living a double life by not telling a certain friend or family member? Right, because some people might never be able to come out at work, and some people can same thing with their family. So I just want to honor that whole range of relational realities that people have. But yeah, I mean, often more people are okay with it, they understand it, then you'd actually be surprised, right. But it also is common that people open up and they lose certain relationships that are meaningful to them. 

Robin | Right

Jessica | Yeah.

Robin | So what are some of the common fears around CNM? Even right, because I think there's I mean, this is, first of all, there's, of course, there's fears within the couple that are like, okay, what are we going to how are we going to do this, right? And then there's the the cultural fears, the societal fears, like the people feel threatened by this, right? I'm sure that that's one and like, when you talk about is leading, leading to separation, right? This, even though you want to stay together, it's like, how can we do this? And this is what you're helping people learn with polysecure.

Jessica | Right, is how can we do this and do it well? And many people do, they, you know, they open up and they do it. Well, that doesn't mean it's easy. There's usually that transition period that like anything that we would take on this new, a different paradigm of being initially can be very difficult. But a lot of people are able to do this wonderfully. And yet the misconception the fear, the prejudice is that it automatically would mean the breakup of a relationship. 

Robin | Right. 

Jessica | Yeah. So many people fear that. And there is some truth to yeah, do people sometimes open up and break up? Absolutely. But the point that I make is that it's not because of polyamory itself. It's often a relationship that was probably going to end but the opening up really expediate did that process, or brought to light things that needed to be addressed, and then they didn't get addressed.

Robin | Right. And that's what you are, you're helping people do right that are coming to you for this help for this support, is figuring out figuring out your attachment, figuring out your own emotional wounding, your childhood stuff, all the things that even in a monogamous relationship, we all need to work on and address within ourselves, so that we can have a secure any relationship. 

Jessica | Right, 

Robin | Right a secure monogamous relationship, or CNM? Relationship? Correct?

Jessica | Absolutely. Right. If we want to be in a secure relationship, a healthy relationship, I do believe we need to do that inner work and that interpersonal work. But there is something about exclusivity that sometimes like allows us to not have to do that work in the same way that being in an open paradigm of relating really kind of pushes us to have to look at certain things that we might not have to otherwise. 

Robin | Right

Jessica | There's a real opportunity for up leveling. 

Robin | Yes. And so you there's this great section in the book about security of a monogamous relationship versus a healthy functioning one. Can you please go into that, Jessica?

Jessica | eah, so I talked about the difference between like, where do we get our sense of security? And is it just from the structure of the relationship? Or is it from our emotional experience? So the structures would be the fact that we're legally married, or that we live together or that we own things together? Or we have children? Right. These are structural things that many people, that's what they lean on to be like, I'm good, I'm safe. We're okay. 

Robin | Right

Jessica | Versus what's your actual emotional experience? Do you emotionally feel safe? Connected? Right? Do you emotionally feel that you're engaged with each other? Do you you know, can you trust and lean into each other? And so a lot of people realize, oh, I feel safe because of the structure we have not actually from my relational experience with my partner. Like, yeah, so I'm not anti structure. Great. Have all the structure you want, but I want you to get your security from your actual experience. and relationally and emotionally from that relationship, not just from the structure itself.

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There was a big differentiation in there, and you go into it. I just encourage people that want to learn more about CNM or secure relationships Polysecure, because there's a lot of nuance in that. And a lot. I think of introspection, which you invite people to go into around around exactly what you just said, is it, is this a structural thing for your security? Or is it like, is it the intimacy all in all different levels that you have with your partner?

Jessica | Yeah, right. I mean, we can apply this to other areas of life, like, with family, let's say in our own children. Right? Do I feel that we feel like we're a healthy family just because we're under the same roof? Right? Or what are the actual quality of the interactions that are happening under that roof? 

Robin | Yeah. So the other learning I had in this when I was reading your books was around relationship orientation, versus choice. 

Jessica | Yeah. 

Robin | And I thought, wow, like this. And that made sense to me. But I just, I really wanted to talk about that with you. Because you said, like somebody like it could there are many people that are like, this is like I'm not choosing to be polyamorous, like, it's like, it's something that's within me. It's n. Yeah, I'm like, I'm just I don't think I'm wired to have a monogamous, monogamous relationship.

Jessica | Yeah, exactly. This is a hot topic. 

Robin | I'm sure it is. Let's talk about that. Why is it such a hot topic? Like because I, to me, it made I mean, you know, there's, we're, the world is growing and changing in so many ways human beings are evolving and changing. We're all seeing it.

Jessica | Exactly. So you know, the debate that happens is sort of is polyamory a choice? Or is it an orientation, you know, and an orientation that would be something that we don't feel like we're choosing maybe something like gender, right, we're just this feels like who I am. So people really describe their polyamory as their orientation. This is how they're wired. It's innate to them, just like you said, they didn't wake up and choose to be this way. And so some people in that camp don't want polyamory to be called a lifestyle. Right? Because they're, I think they feel that it diminishes it. But half of my clients would identify it as a lifestyle and not their orientation, but they're committed to it as the practice. But they might not have initiated it on their own. given different circumstances, they might go back to exclusive relationships. So some people are liking like, they want people to use the term, maybe ambi-amorous instead, like someone who's going back and forth, 

Robin | ambi-amorous 

Jessica | Or fluidity or something like that, which is great. I'm all for even having more terms. The challenge though, that happens is people that are polyamorous are seeking legal rights, polyamorous folks are not a protected class. And there's certain places in Canada in the US and other places in the world that are trying to make unions have multiple partnerships, legal. Co-parenting among more than two people three, you know, parents become legal. And so let's say you have three people, one of them might not feel that it's their orientation. But does that mean they're not the but this is their practice, this is their life choice. So you know, do they not get rights now? Because they can't use that term? Right? So it gets really nuanced.

Robin | It does. You know, on the flip side, in my mind, I'm like, I, I don't think this will change in me, but I feel like my orientation is to be monogamous. And I'm sure you hear that, like, I mean, I can think of most people in my life that would say that it's like, my orientation is not to be polyamorous. So why can't the opposite be true? Of course it can be.

Jessica | Exactly we allow it to be a spectrum with, you know, on each end people might identify as really more this is their complete orientation. And then there's a lot of people in the middle. And I think another thing that happens is we think that if it's a choice, then we shouldn't get protections legally. But it's like, well, religion is protected, right? And many times that isn't, you know, a cultural legacy. But it's also a choice, right? So it's like, it's just as valid in my mind to be either one. And I think it's important that we honor the truth for each individual of how they feel their polyamory to be and how they want to identify. 

Robin | Yes, I agree. So let's talk about common ideals and principles, that those that are practicing CNM typically embrace. You list them? And I'm like, yeah, like, it's like, almost like, these are the ways that we, as a group of people that are practicing, this is what we believe this is how we want to live in our relationships. This is right,

Jessica | Exactly

Robin | What would be some of those things?

Jessica | So just a few of them would be seeing love not as a finite resource, but as infinite. But honoring that time is a finite resource. All right, seeing love, not as possessive that I own you, your body, your sexuality, your love, because we're in we're in partnership together, right? Love is not possessive, but it is really free. Others would just be like, the values of transparent communication, honesty, transparency in general. Right, and things like around, you know, moving towards challenges. So a common challenge that people are afraid of is jealousy. When there's multiple partnerships, and of course, jealousy happens, but there's really this value to say, well, let's face jealousy, not avoid jealousy.

Robin | Yes, you talk a lot about jealousy. And it's like, this natural human emotion. 

Jessica | Yeah.

Robin |  And like, and it's going to happen. 

Jessica | Yeah, it's going to happen. And it's okay. 

Robin | Yes. And so, you know, I love the fact that, you know, you lay it out, and I was just talking to a friend of mine the other day, who said, she was she found out that we were talking, I was gonna be talking to you, and she's like, Oh, my God, I read that book. It's like the Bible, it's like, there's just so much in it about, like, really great, really great guidance and tools and skills. And, and you lay out like, just, you know, rules of engagement, like agreements that you want to have with your partner. Yeah, and of course, the ideal is to sit down with with your whoever these people are going to be experiencing life with, and being like, okay, this is where this we're gonna do this. This is how we have to do like so that everybody can in somehow you're creating a container to create as much security as you can. Right?

Jessica | Exactly. And that would be another value or principle and practice as well as people in non monogamous relationships. They create their relationship agreements. There's a lot of sort of forethought and negotiation and sharing, what are our shared values? What are shared agreements and principles? And that's something that any relationship would benefit from Why, what are we doing together? Why are we here together? Right? Yeah, what are agreements instead of just assuming we're on the same page about it.

Robin | Right. Like you give the example for instance, and I was like, I read it, and I was like, Oh, I would be so jealous. You give the example of like you're,you're laying in bed with one of your partners. And they're texting the other person? Yeah. And I'd be like, Oh, I would, I would just be so jealous and upset about that, like, we're in bed together. Like, you know, think these things are gonna happen. Maybe you gonna happen. But if you have an agreement around like, I'm not cool with that. 

Jessica | Yeah. Well, sometimes I am, but maybe right after sex. I'm not, you know, so just figuring that out. Right. Yeah. Clear agreements around some of those boundaries.

Robin | And the other the other thing that really was so clear to me that you say, you know, and you're reinforcing is like, a CNM relationship is because of this creation. It's, it is insecure. Right. Is that is that is that the right way to say it? It's like, it's fundamentally

Jessica | Relative to monogamy, right? It's structurally less secure.

Robin | And so what you're doing is setting up ways to make it more secure. Exactly. Did I say that right? 

Jessica | Yes, exactly. Right. That's the intention especially if Polysecure is to support people in how to create those secure relationships, the secure functioning because being polyamorous it does have more insecurity built in right or less it has less of those structural securities that people that are monogamous can rely on. Yeah, and some people make the case, though, that to them being on monogamous they actually feel more secure? Because there isn't the same obligation that shows up in monogamous relationships, right? Where you're like, Are you with me because you actually want to be with me or just because we're married or because we've been together so long or because divorce would not be allowed with, you know, in our community, so to speak. Whereas we really know and usually in non monogamous partnerships, we're together because we want to be because we don't have to be. 

Robin | Right. There was this example that I don't know if it was when you were speaking with Esther Perel, or whether it was in your book, I can't recall where I got this, you know, memory from, but you were talking about a couple, for instance, and I think we've all heard of this, or maybe experienced ourselves. So a long term partnership husband and wife that maybe she or he is just like, let's say she is not interested in sex, and they haven't had sex for a long time. They have, you know, they have every everything else going on in the relationship, supposedly. And he's like, well, but I really want sex. It's something that's very important to me. 

Jessica | Yeah.

Robin | And so she's like, Okay, well, then I'm okay with you having sex with other women, but I really still want to be in partnership. Yeah. And that's just an like, and I think the conversation did. Did you write about this? Or was this something that you talked about?

Jessica | I'm not sure. Yeah.

Robin | I think the perspective was, like, you know, the discussion was so much bigger than just that, cuz I was thinking. I felt like yeah, like the man he's, he wants sex. And it's a human . It's like a need or want both I think, for intimacy, that's what he wanted. Right? And it was almost like, it's like, if she's okay with that going outside the marriage, but she doesn't. Can we just go into that discussion? Jessica? Do you know where I'm going with this? 

Jessica | I think so, yeah. I mean, will you tell me I think what you're getting at is there a some marriages that eventually become low sex or sexless. But there's amazing things about that marriage for them outside of the sex, right the the life they've created the home, they've created the community, they have children, maybe they have whatever it is, right, the shared projects they have, and they don't want to give that up. But one or both partners also doesn't want to live without sex in their life. And so for some times those partnerships, non monogamy is a great option. Where it doesn't have to be one or the other, they can still maintain this, you know, companion marriage that they have, so to speak, and then have love and sex outside of that. They might of course, have many types of love. But I mean, you know, sexy left. 

Robin | Yeah. So what happens when somebody is coming to you, a couple is coming to you. And one partner really wants to open the relationship. 

Jessica | Yeah.

Robin | And the other person's like, no, like, I'm not okay with this, or even, okay, I'm on I want to learn more, let's go to the therapist, let's go to Jessica or somebody who specializes in CNM. And figure out if this is possible, in my comfort, like, we're like, cuz you said there's a few things around this dynamic number one, if the if there's a couple that's coming, the conversation has already started, the person that's wanting it has already been is there like way ahead.

Jessica | They've been wanting this for a long time, usually, yeah.

Robin | Right. And the partner that's again, does not wanting it, they're behind, right in their, in their thought process around it, and their readiness, curiosity, all of that. So that already poses,

Jessica | It creates this disparity between them

Robin | Timing. Yeah. How do you how do you help people with in that situation? 

Jessica | Yeah there's a bunch of things we do. And in Polywise, you know, I get more into that, especially if troubleshooting you know, how do we support the partner that is the more reluctant partner wouldn't have initiated this themselves. And so sometimes it's just about going slow. You're not necessarily leaping into full on relationships with new people, but more having certain experiences outside of the marriage or even together that just start to titrate your nervous system and even the relationship to opening up. So we'll get clear okay, what could be the first few steps to experiment with this what is experiment look like? And that can go really well and it can of course, backfire and think and then people realize, you know why this is potentially so hard. But I am frequently pleasantly surprised about how many people were initially the absolute no to this and then within the year of experimenting are completely on board. It happens a lot.

Robin | And so can you give us an example of titrating? Or experimenting,

Jessica | Right to be okay not to necessarily start sleeping with people, but just start to go on dates with people and come home and see what that's like. Right? Or maybe there's some aspects, you know, go on dates and have a kiss or something. And then before you're just going out, because you know, and everyone's different, some people struggle more with their partner having emotional connections. Others struggle more with their being sexual connections. Okay, so that could be an example. It can be that there's, you know, some people just are like, can we just start with if there is a new person in your life, we're not necessarily seeing them every day, or you're not taking vacations immediately that you're sort of pacing that new relationship, in a way. And this is tricky, because that new person needs to feel like they're getting their needs met, you know, of course. But that is also not just completely too fast for the other partners as well.

Robin | Like, what I was talking to my friend, Kirsten, about this when we were, you know, talking about your books, and just having these bigger discussions. I'm like, it's so much to manage. 

Jessica | Yeah 

Robin | Jessica, do you feel like did you feel that way? Or is it because you have been practicing CNM for a while, that you've managed, like, I just feel like, it's so like, you've got all these different dynamics and people, and we're, like, we all are just so unique, and have our wants and needs and attachment styles and, and life's, children? Like it's just I can't, it's just so much to manage.

Jessica | And some people manage it much better than others, of course, and I think it's more complex, right? We have when you there's more people, there's more complexity of navigating, negotiating multiple needs and wants and preferences and nervous systems and trauma histories, right. But I think it's sort of like, pick your complexity, right? Some people that comes through their work, or their hobbies, or how many kids they have, or how many partners they have, I think, you know, so I can look at, you know, something other things that other people do. And I'm just like, whoa, that's too much for me. And it might be fine. But yeah, it is more complex. relationally for sure. And, but that doesn't mean it's, you know, it's not a value judgment, right.

Robin | I really liked that. Pick your complexity. Yeah. Right. Like, take a look at your life and realize and be like, yeah, that's, that's their complexity? Yeah

Jessica | I think we can all like, evaluate, is this complexity? Toxic for me? Does it make me sick on certain levels? Right? Is it too complex and overwhelming? Or is this complexity, pushing me evolving me, helping me to grow more and more? So whatever your complexity is, right, whatever domain of life assess, is it actually a complexity that supports you into growth into your own evolution? Or is it just stressful?

Robin | Yeah. And so can you share more about your own personal journey around this and how things have evolved for you and your family? And

Jessica | Yeah

Robin | Whatever, whatever you feel comfortable sharing. I just, I'd be very interested just to know your story more about it.

Jessica | Yeah, my story actually started at 14 the first time I kissed a girl, you know, and and kiss boys already and had experiences with boys and then started to have experience with girls and realized, oh, I'm bisexual. So I had that identity at such a young age compared to a lot of people. And so it was kind of normal to kiss both sexes, both genders or in between genders even, you know, in high school and college. I had a lot of friends that were into different kinds of exploration like that. So that was, I was lucky. There was no name for it, though. There was never like the name like non monogamy or polyamory was never spoken. It was just kind of the way it was right? And it wasn't until so then I was in a monogamous marriage with David who's my co author olywise. And then it was from there that we really opened up as if polyamorous and really started living polyamorous in an out there way.

Robin | And how did that what did that look like between in your family like?

Jessica | We were married, we were living together. We have a child and so we would date people outside of the house and we were our partners. None of them lived with us at that time initially. But there was really space for those people to be just as emotionally as important. Right, that we could really have full on committed partnerships. They just wouldn't have been nesting at that time, you know. And then Dave and I stayed together as a family, but we uncoupled, you know, as romantic partners and sexual partners. And so we lived apart for a little bit. And then we moved back in, and we actually lived with an ex partner of mine, but there was a partner of mine we lived with and a partner of his and we had our family, you know, so we've had different iterations.

Robin | So, Jessica, you're saying that you lived as two couples in the same home?

Jessica | Yeah, yeah. We had like, separate, you know, upstairs, downstairs. But we did. We had that for a little bit. It was super sweet. Yeah. And it wouldn't have worked with just any partnerships that we had. But that's what we did for a while.

Robin | But does that mean, just in that example, just I wanted to ask you as we go here, yeah. Does that mean that you were, you know, you each had your partners? Yeah. So that you're monogamous to that partner. But you're living in

Jessica | Not always. Yeah, not always. 

Robin | You're still 

Jessica | Yeah, there might have been maybe other relationships with this was like how the nesting in the family was structured at that time.

Robin | And so your experience with David's partner, for instance, when she moved in, in your and his experience with yours? Yeah. And we were How did that go? Yeah, yeah. So it's just like, you're all one happy family. That can mean this. Just we're not in a fairy tale here. We're both accepting open. 

Jessica | Yeah. Right. It wasn't always easy, but we'd have to have like House meetings, you know, just like people who cohabitate? Yeah, right. there'd have to be like, family, we did family dinner night, we had, you know, night that you have our son because it's our date night and vice versa. You know, so we just really, there's a lot of scheduling that was involved. But it was lovely

Robin | How did your son handle it?

Jessica | Yeah, he loved it. Because there is, you know, his attachment to David and it has never been broken, right. He's always had his two parents. And so the that one period of time where we did have other partners nesting with us, it was kind of like having an aunt and an uncle in the house that he loved. He loved having them around. Yeah. And now we have a situation where Dave and our son, we live together, and we each have a partner that doesn't live with us. And you know, those are really positive role models in our son's life. He loves the relationships with them. Yeah, and their children.

Robin | Wow. Like, you know, in mind, like, I just love this, because it's like, my mind is like blown by like, it seems evolved. It is because in a way, like, it's just like this opening of like, there's limitless possibilities. 

Jessica | It's a real, 

Robin | It's potential

Jessica | Right. It's an expansion of possibilities for sure. I want to be careful, though, because I don't like when people think that polyamory is more evolved than people that are exclusive. Right? And it's like.

Robin | No no, no. And I didn't mean it that way. Jessica, I just think it's, it takes a lot of it takes a lot of work to I'm sure to get there. And, and that's why I was like, Okay, I like I said, I read your books, but I'm like, this is something that you would you would really need to understand these principles. And be careful and be very cautious. 

Jessica | Yeah.

Robin | Because there's a lot of people involved. Lot of hearts involved. Exactly. The communication has to be like your communication has to be like you said transparent, honest. You don't want to be messing around. 

Jessica | Yeah. it's rarely, the communication is rarely perfect. There's a lot of learning in retrospect. But really just having that growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset makes such a big difference.

Robin | Wow. 

Jessica | Yeah. 

Robin | Well, what would you say are one of the key messages that you are just really reinforcing? Reinforcing? That you want people to understand better?

Jessica | I want people to know that this is a valid way of living and loving and being. It's possible. It's been possible many people have been doing this a long time. There's nothing wrong with you if this is who you feel yourself to be or if this is what you want to do. Yeah, and I think, unfortunately, we hear more horror stories, or we assume the prejudice or, you know, negative things about it. And we can see that in any relationship structure. So just for people to know yeah, there's a lot of amazing things about this relationship structure.

Robin | Right. Yeah. So can you just share a little bit about your new book?

Jessica | Yeah, it's not about non monogamy. Yeah. Okay. No, yeah, I'm, you know, be switching to have a more general audience. And it's about inner transformative work. So looking at the ways that we have these different parts of our inner critic, and shame and enter the ways we escape, and the interaction of those and sort of how to work through those.

Robin | Wow, yeah, I had my New Year's resolution this year, and it was to really get really up close and personal with my inner critic. And, and and, like, that's enough. That's enough out of her. I'm gonna stand up to that inner critic that's just been taking over a lot of my thoughts since I was very little. The inner demon tries to put me down on a regular basis.

Jessica | Yeah

Robin | So Wow, that's good. I look forward to reading it. When is it? 

Jessica | Oh it probably won't be till 2025. Because right now, yeah, we're still in the writing process. And you know, that's the whole thing. 

Robin | Good. Well, that's incredible. We're gonna keep following your work, Jessica. And I look forward to reading your book and having you back on to talk about that, because I'm in it right now. And I like going through the hard work

Jessica | I should interview you for the book, then.

Robin | You don't want to hear what she has to say that this inner critic, she's not very nice. Well, I thank you so much, Jessica Fern, for being on our show. And, and for opening my perspective. And hopefully those that are listening, learned a lot as I have from you. And really, it's just I think, you know, what it comes down to it's talking about inner critic, let's talk about even the outer critic in all of us. It's like the judgment of others, and even the shaming of others that are different than us and living different ways. It's like, you know, we're here to evolve and grow and be more loving. That's really what that's how I see life. And I hope that this conversation invites people to be more of that. 

Jessica | Yeah. Open invite, it gives people permission to really be in touch more with what they want, and that it can be out here in the world.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I'm going to close with a blessing because I close all of our blessing. And it's based on really the work that I've learned from you. And the words I've learned from you. It's So may we maintain open minds and hearts when it comes to understanding relationship orientations. May we hold respect for each other's relationship orientations and dynamics.  And may we learn to feel more secure within ourselves and create secure loving bonds in our relationships with others. So thank you, Jessica. 

Jessica | Thank you that was beautiful. 

Robin | I really appreciate your time. 

Thank you so much for listening. Visit realloveready.com to continue learning with us. Please rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the tools and guidance you need to form more loving relationships and create positive change in your life. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well. Many blessings in much love.