Minaa B. - Wired For Connection

Join Robin in a compelling conversation with Minaa B., a licensed social worker, mental health educator, and the author of Owning Our Struggles: A Path to Healing and Finding Community in a Broken World. Together they delve into Chapter Five of Minaa's book, exploring the often overlooked challenges of singlehood and the impact of online dating on mental health. Minaa emphasizes our innate need for connection and the healing power of community. This conversation is a crucial exploration that we hope broadens your perspective, deepens your self-understanding, and sheds light on the experiences of those around you. 

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Book: Owning Our Struggles 

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Website: https://www.minaab.com/

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Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Today I had the most insightful conversation with Minaa B. Minaa is a licensed social worker, mental health educator, and author of owning our struggles, a path to healing and finding community in a broken world. She's also the founder of a mental health consulting practice, where she collaborates with organizations to help them develop psychological safety. Much of our discussion today was based on Chapter Five of Minaa's book, which is all about the struggle for intimacy. We unpack the grief often present with being a single person who yearns for partnership. Something not talked about enough is how hard online dating can be, and how it can negatively impact our mental health. Minaa reminds us how we are all wired for connection. She emphasizes how we heal together and in community. This is an important conversation I hope will help you open your mind and broaden your perspective and understanding of yourself and others around you. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host Robin Ducharme now Let's Talk Love. 

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I am so excited to be joined by our guest today, Minaa B Minaa, thank you for coming on our show. I've just I'm so excited to meet you.

Minaa B | Thank you, Robin, thank you for having me.

Robin Ducharme | I was reading your book and preparing for our discussion today and I want to say that in the last, you know, maybe three or four days as I was preparing, like I've been thinking so much about what I've been learning through you. And I feel like my my perspective has broadened because of the work that you're doing. And I'm excited to talk to you about your book and the work. So first, the first question I want to ask before we dive into, you know what, first let's just go into your background, please tell us about yourself, and what you're doing professionally. And you're and why you wrote your book and just everything.

Minaa B | So to let everyone know a little bit about me, I'm a licensed social worker, mental health educator and author. So I earned my Master's Degree in social work from NYU and I studied the clinical track. So I was working primarily in a therapeutic space. When I graduated, I worked in various industries in mental health. So I worked in private practice working with clients who struggle with depression, anxiety, and trauma. I also worked in community mental health, which is more on a macro level. But then I also worked in New York City, early childhood head starts, where I worked with children ages zero to five on their social emotional development. I also worked with their families, providing counseling, and then also working with the teachers on their own mental health, but also how to support the mental health of the children in their classroom. So that is pretty much my background. But while I was doing all of this, I was blogging and sharing a lot of insights on mental health, on Instagram and my blog at the time, this is back way back in like 2015. And I will say that, as we all know, Instagram first started off as a platform where we shared our selfies and what we had for dinner and the doughnuts that you're eating. And then all of a sudden there was this explosion of people sharing content related to their mental health. And so I started to really see an influx of followers like around 2017 -2018. But 2020 is when things really changed for me as a result of the Coronavirus pandemic, the murder of George Floyd, the stabbings happening in the Asian American community. A lot of corporations started to come to me to get me to speak on employee wellbeing and address issues related to racial trauma, issues related to burnout because everybody was burned out, and so much around how do we now cultivate community in a world that is isolated. And when we're being taught that being around people is dangerous now and so. 

Robin Ducharme | Right wow

Minaa B | In 2020, Right, you know, like, there was just such a huge shift in society. And so, in 2021, is when I actually pivot away from seeing clients one on one just because I can't do it all and I have recognized my limitations. And so I stepped away from seeing clients. And now I primarily focus on corporate wellness. So I work with organizations to help them develop psychological safety, and become inclusive of mental health. And then in 2023, August 2023, is when I released my book that you're referencing Owning Our Struggles: A Path To Healing and Finding Community In A Broken World.

Robin | Wow. Well, I think you've got an incredible story. And you know, so much, there was so many threads that were in your book, I'm holding it up. For those of you that are watching this on video. The threads that were going throughout your book is about, like you said, the importance of community. It is about trauma, and more than just our own trauma, right. It's intergenerational, it's, it is coming from a culture, a community, and you share a lot of stories of clients and people that you've worked with and help them heal. You talk about we're more than just our story. Right. And you talk about how healing never ends. It's, it's never too late to start. So I thought those were those were the messages that I I took away but I mean, this this, there's there's just so much to talk about in this book. But I thought what we would do is, if you're okay with this Minaa is dive into chapter five, because there's so much in this book, I would recommend everybody read this book, chapter five around the struggle for intimacy. And I think you talked about that right there about how we all as a world went through the pandemic, and we were separated. We had to be physically distanced. And I think we've all struggled with intimacy in different areas of our lives. Like I can think about relationships in my own life with this person, or that person where I've struggled with intimacy, we all know that experience, and we're probably all experiencing it now. But how do we become more connected, right? And learn those skills of intimacy, because it is skill, these are skills that we can all learn. 

Minaa | And that we need, because we need people, you know, and that was the goal of writing this overall book, but really emphasizing that chapter. Because I talk about intimacy as you read in different formats, not just intimacy, and romantic relationships, but intimacy with ourselves, intimacy with our friends, and intimacy with our partners. And you know, it's a skill that I think the pandemic kind of robbed us of, we're already wounded before the pandemic, from our own interpersonal stuff, and the layers of societal and environmental trauma. But I think the pandemic really got deep into that wound and really made people feel like there's no way that this thing can be healed. And so I really am happy that we're having this conversation so that people can understand that we're biologically wired for connection, there is no such thing as not needing someone, and there is no shame in needing to depend on people and wanting support from other people also. 

Robin | Absolutely I think our culture, our community, our world has become this place where it's like we're taught, and the messaging keeps coming out. Yeah, like, be independent, be strong. You talked about this in your book, Minaa about how that's how you were raised as a black woman, right? Your mother was, and you can understand that culturally, right? Like how it's like, you need to stand up for yourself, you need to fend for yourself, this world is a dangerous place. I mean, it's, it is still for a black woman in America. Right? 

Minaa | Right. It is, you know, and it's about recognizing, you know, when I write that, I think about the different ways that I carried the Superwoman cape, and that's what I talked about in the book. But at some point, in my own life journey, I realized this cape is actually more detrimental to my well being. It is not helping me grow, it is not helping me flourish. And so how do I find a balance from being independent and moving into a space of interdependency, which was what my call to action is for everyone. You know, at the end of the day, it is true that we cannot always be fully dependent on other people, because we have to learn to be self sufficient. We have to learn to engage in self efficacy, which is the motivation to change something in the belief that you can and being actionable about the things that you want, but you don't have to run to the finish line alone. You can run

Robin | You can't run alone

Minaa | With people cheering you on, exactly, with somebody holding your hand while I'm running maybe the person behind me is sprinting, and the other person is walking but we're all going in the same direction cheering each other on. And guess what, we're all gonna get to the finish line, it doesn't matter who got there first, you know. And I think it's really all about how do we move from a place a place of feeling like we don't need people and pushing people out? And learning to say, how can I become more interdependent where I have a healthy level of autonomy and agency over myself, but I also have a healthy level of dependency, because I know I can't do things alone.

Robin | Exactly. I love it. Because I think these are we just have to be reminded interdependence is so important for our well being. Right. So, yeah, and so in the book, and in this chapter, you talk about, there's so many people in our community that are single, and wanting to find their partner and navigating online dating everything. So I wanted to dive into this because I just love all the lessons and the learnings that you are teaching your book about this. You talk about there is grief in singleness. And you talk about something called ambiguous loss. Can we please we just go into this because I thought, oh, my gosh, it's like this ongoing grief. If you're on if you're dating, and you're trying to find a partner, you're not only there's just so many factors that are actually causing ongoing grief. 

Minaa | Right exactly. So I would love to unpack ambiguous loss, because I think a lot of people will be able to relate to it when I break down what it is. Ambiguous loss is when somebody experiences a prolonged type of grief that manifests in two ways. The first way is when somebody is physically present, but psychologically absent. So to give a clear example of that, think about an elderly person, it could be a parent and grandparent who might have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's or Dementia, they're not dead, they're still alive. But psychologically, they are not present, psychologically, they don't remember who you are. And that is deeply painful to look your mother, or your father or even your partner in the face, and they don't know who you are, you're unrecognizable to them. And so you're dealing with this sorrow, you're dealing with this deep sadness. And nobody's going to go to CBS  and get you a Hallmark card that says, I'm sorry for the loss of your partner or parent who's psychologically absent, but they're still earthside. Right? Nobody plans a funeral for somebody who was still alive, but a psychologically gone, right. 

Robin | I can think of anotheryour example Minaa, that you're talking about in the book you talk about, because there's a, I didn't mean to interrupt you. But I just wanted to just add to that, because in your book, you talk about, you know, broken relationships between, or maybe there wasn't even a relationship to begin with, with a parent child. And that parent is still alive, and that child is grieving. And even as an adult, they're grieving the loss, or non existence of that relationship they have with their parent. So that would be another example of ambiguous loss, right?

Minaa | Yes, that absolutely would be and you might find those triggers coming up for you, maybe around the holidays, where your grief is amplified, because we know, in our society holiday is associated with family. So it's Christmas, and you don't even have your parent to spend the holiday with because they're physically here. Yes. But psychologically, they're so unsafe, you can even do something that is nourishing and safe to do with the natural, natural human being right. And so that is what it looks like to experience when somebody is physically present but psychologically absent. But there is another side to ambiguous loss that I like to use in the context of singleness, which is when somebody is psychologically present, but physically absent. And I know people will say, well, Minaa, if the person is physically absent, well, what is the grief? And I want people to think about your preferences and your standards when it comes to being single and what you're looking for in a partner.

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Minaa | Often when Somebody is single, and the people who are desiring a relationship, they have a general idea of what they want their outcome to be. There are people who will say, I want to be married, I want to have children. If I marry someone, I want my partner to have qualities where maybe they're family oriented. I want my partner to love traveling, because this is what I enjoy doing. I want my partner to be somebody that I can pretty much share every intimate detail of my life with I want my partner to be my best friend. Some of us even have standards around physical attraction, I'm attracted to people who are x height, or I'm attracted to people just have particular races, right, there are different things that I am attracted to. So when you are single, even though you are not dating someone, you don't have a partner, psychologically, somebody does exist. 

Robin | Yes. And they're in your like, yeah, you talk about, oh, I just love this so much. Talk about how that that can also go. Okay, but let's talk about ambiguous loss first, then the grief around that. And then we'll go into how your imagination can be completely detrimental.

Minaa | Exactly, exactly. So to start off with the ambiguous loss part in the grief of it, what ends up happening is, and you may have remembered this Robin from my book, where I say single people who are dating, ultimately have to turn people into ghosts, every single time it does not work out. 

Robin | Yes. And it's like, and it's that loss every time. Like, let's say, you take somebody for even, let's say you have like four or five dates, and you're like, actually, things are hitting off. And then all of a sudden, it's ends. I mean, you're grieving the loss of what you thought it could be, and also the time you have with that person, it's like, and it's like this, I've got friends that have been dating for years since their divorce. And it's like this, it's like repeated, it's repeated losses.

Minaa | Exactly, exactly. And then think about, again, that person is psychologically present. And so every time you date, you're hoping that this is the person who wants marriage, this is the person who's open to having kids. This is the person who is emotionally mature, and is open to having certain conversations with me. And then when you don't get what you're looking for their goes another loss. And again, as I said, with the other example, no one's bringing you a Hallmark card, because your dating life didn't work out.

Robin | And they're not saying I'm just so sorry that you broke up with that person that you had a good connection with, even though they weren't the right one, right, or they present you could be with your absolutely right.

Minaa | And I want to add that often. So many people wrestle with that grief is because instead, what I tend to hear happening in society is well, you know, maybe you need to love yourself more. Or someone's gonna come at the right time. Like, who cares if it didn't work out. It just wasn't meant to be?

Robin | Right. 

Minaa | And so there's a dismissal of the grief. Because here you are mourning something that you desire that didn't work out. But the people around you or the messages you're hearing in society is minimizing your grief. And so therefore, a lot of people don't know what to do with the grief, and they start to shame themselves, because they feel like well, maybe it's unrealistic for me to want someone. Right. And I think that those are the things that I think a lot of people have to unpack and dismantle. Because like I said, we are biologically wired for connection and all forms of connection.

Robin | Right

Minaa | It is okay to want romantic partnership

Robin | Of course, it is. And I think that's the other piece of the shame that you talk about in your book is, is the shame that people put on you for being single. 

Minaa | Exactly. 

Robin | And wanting like, you're fine on your own, like, why do you first of all, like, Why do you even need a partner you don't, because you're fine on your own. Actually, I want that. And it's in my heart, and it's not going to go away. So even wishing it away, it's not going to let it go away, because I'm wired for connection. And I want to have a partner. So don't shame me for that. And then the other thing I think, which is the overarching is that singleness is less than less than partnership. You're talking about that in your book. 

Minaa | Exactly. Because a lot of this societal ideology, it's, you know, it's such an interesting paradox, because you'll hear these messages. But then in society, we hear the values of marriage and family is so placed high on a hierarchy of life, where it's like when you don't have those things. Well, what's wrong with you? Right. And so it's like this internal struggle and this internal battle where you almost feel like you're not good enough, because when I'm single, I'm dealing with these things. But then when I get into a relationship, I'm also hearing these particular messages that this is the only thing that I should care about and value. And so I think it's really all about taking the time to look inward and sit with that grief and know that it's okay to want someone in a romantic way. And I also think that we have to stop gaslighting people into believing that all connection is equal. Because connection is connection. It's it's a beautiful thing. But I'm going to be honest and say and I think a lot of people who are experiencing ambiguous loss around singleness feel the same way where it's nice to have thriving friendships. But there's other areas of my life that I want to be satisfied that I'm not really expecting my friends to satisfy those domains.

Robin | I want to, like I have, I have really close friends and a great family. But guess what I want to partner and I want to make love to that person.

Minaa | Exactly

Robin | And I want to do all these things that you want to do with your best friend. And that's okay to want that.

Minaa | I want a sexually healthy relationship with a partner and not my friend, I want to cuddle that night with my partner, and not my friend, when we're going out to the movies or having brunch. Sometimes I want to do that with my partner and not my friends. I still love my friends, you're amazing people, you can love your friends and have an abundance of different forms of connection in your life. But again, connection is not equal. You know. And so I that's another thing that I want us to really dismantle when we think about singleness. And stop perpetuating these messages that if you're single, you must not love yourself enough. If you're struggling at least around your singleness, you don't love yourself enough. Or you need to find yourself you need to go explore who you are. I think it's really

Robin | Need to be more positive, you have to change your attitude. You also talked about this in your book, which there's so many things, It should be a two part series. We'll talk about law of attraction and all that stuff. Before we talk about this. Can we talk about something that's not also being addressed. Is how it really like online dating, for instance, and the search for your partner for like, let's say a lot your work, you're doing it right. You're doing all the things you're going to the meetups, your online dating, you're this and you talk about how there, this is this is really affecting mental health. Like you say studies show that people who frequently use dating apps report higher levels of anxiety, depression and stress. I was like, wow, we're not talking about that. I mean, I've been interviewing dating coaches and matchmakers and we're talking about, okay, what's the best profile. Let's, let's talk about the best pictures to put on and all the strategies to to online date effectively. But we're not talking about the flip side of it, which is that online dating can actually be actually very dangerous to your health. If you're you have to be cautious, and you're talking about discernment. So yeah

Minaa | Yeah, yes. Yeah, absolutely. I believe that discernment is very key. You know, studies show that, as you mentioned, right, anxiety, depression, and it's also impacting self esteem. And the reason behind this is the many different mechanisms behind the way dating apps work. Number one, dating apps are built on attraction, hence why we swipe left, swipe left, or we swipe right. Right, we're looking at a person's pictures. We're also discerning who they are by the little blurbs that they put in their profile. And so it's like, how can you make yourself as attractive as possible with the best looking photos. Or how can you put out the best messages out there to garner somebody's attention? And so already, there are people who report and when they're not getting any likes at all, it makes them feel inadequate, it impacts their body positivity images, or their ideas around body neutrality, like am I beautiful? Am I good enough? That's one thing that can pop up. Another thing that is impacting the way people navigate dating apps and why it's also leading to anxiety is ghosting is a huge phenomenon in the dating app space. We live in a culture where a lot of people feel that if I am not connected to you, I don't have to communicate that I can just disappear. And I think there's one thing but between I swiped left, I swiped right, and we liked each other. We said two words to each other. And we just stopped communicating, versus actually hearing stories of people who have gotten stood up on dates. People who have gone on multiple dates and all of a sudden that person disappeared. At that point, you started forming a genuine connection with someone and that person on the other side believed it was genuine. They believed that was authentic, and instead of engaging in the skills of emotional maturity to say I actually don't think this is going to work. There are people who use avoidance as a tactic to deal with with letting somebody go, and so that also brings up anxiety because now you're utilizing this app, and you swipe right, you're connected with someone, but there's this fear. If it doesn't work out, are they just going to leave me hanging? If we plan a date, are they actually going to show up? And so it leads to this you dread. And then that anxiety can now exasperate into feeling depressed, and again, impact your self esteem, and how you view yourself. I even hear sometimes people will have conversations where people will say, you know, I know others who have met their partner on a dating app. So why isn't it working for me what is wrong with me. And it's really hard to measure the success of dating apps, because there are different variables that go into what makes a person connect, as well as what leads to a healthy relationship, right. And so I think it's all about using discernment. And recognizing the warning signs. When a dating app is now becoming detrimental to your mental health. The first thing I recommend that people pay attention to is your anxiety levels. If you find that it's not a pleasurable experience to be on the app, then I encourage you to use discernment and say is right now the time to engage in this? It might be every time I make a dating profile. I'm like, really tense, I'm getting headaches, I'm checking my phone chronically. I'm changing my pictures every five minutes, because I'm like, oh, man, I look ugly, I must look fat, I must look and I'm using all of these derogatory terms to refer to yourself, that might be a sign that your relationship to the app might be a little unhealthy. And discernment might look like, this isn't what I need right now, in this season at this moment, because you can only sign up for an app, right? You know, there's no expiration, you can delete the app today and go back on that same app two days later, right. 

Robin | Yeah and I really liked that term. Like, I really like that, that, that perspective around that, you know, we're like, the seasons in our lives, right? Like, sometimes we're feeling great. We're in our zone, like, and that could be like, for a week, a month, like, you know, a quarter, but it's like this season right now. I'm not I'm not in my I'm not feeling my best. And I'm just not. And that's okay. Right.

Minaa | Exactly, exactly, or the input does not, is not producing a healthy output. And so the input is the effort that I am putting into this app, but the reward is not gratifying. It's not satisfying. And so sometimes we do have to pay attention to that, too. We're, we're doing all this work to be seen on these apps. Sometimes, you know, you're swiping and you're connecting with people. And you might say, I'm holding the conversation. This person hasn't asked me any questions now, even now that I got to a step of even being matched with someone, it still feels like labor,

Robin | Right

Minaa | And it doesn't feel gratifying. And so my input is not really making me feel like there's a positive return on the investment. And so that might also be a sign that maybe I just won't utilize the app right now. Maybe I will disconnect from this person and unmatch them, but if it's a chronic thing, maybe I need to step away from it.

Robin | Yep. So in this chapter, I just thought it was just packed full of so many gems and skills. So seven things to evaluate and work on doing or not doing while dating to find love. So it's like one of one of the things you talk about, which is so prevalent, and I think we've all we've all done it. I think I'm still doing it. I'm dating right everything my dating life right now. And like over-romanticizing. This is something that you talk a lot about which I mean, we all know we've done it or are doing it. So can you please you say over romanticizing a person enhances our feelings for them based not on the effort they put in, in real life, but on the effort they put our putting into putting it in our mind. Yeah. So can you talk about that please Minaa and how are we how are we not over romanticize?

Minaa | So this actually goes back to the concept of ambiguous loss. So remember, I said that for people who are single ambiguous loss could look like when somebody is physically absent but psychologically present. And now although that can lead to feelings of grief if we do not manage the psychological presence of the person that we ideology, have fantasized about or believe as a person for us. It could also lead us into negative territory, and that can lead us to a place of over romanticizing someone when a person does come into the picture. What that looks like is you have an idea again of what you desire in a partner. You have these preferences and you have the standards. And you're yearning so much for someone that all they have to do is show up and say hello. And you're like, Oh my god. Wedding like, I know what ring I want already had children in my brain, like I went to bed last night, and we got married in my mind. And all they did was show up. minimal effort didn't do much. And the reason why you

Robin | And you really don't know this person, that's the thing, right?

Minaa | Exactly. 

Robin | It takes it takes so long to get to know someone, that person is a stranger. until like, I don't even know what date but like a whole bunch of hours, like you don't know that person. Like right?

Minaa | Exactly. And that's the thing about over-romanticizing someone is that what we're doing is we're projecting our ideologies of what we want in a partner on to that person. And it actually interferes with authentic connections, and building very genuine relationships, because what happens when the person in front of you does not live up to the standard that you created in your mind about who they can be. And I see this happen all the time where we meet someone, and a person will like them, but in their head, they're like, but the person I want to be with has x qualities. So how come you haven't shown me this yet. And so it creates a lot of tension in the relationship, because you're waiting for this person to become the version that exists in your mind, instead of allowing that person to authentically show up in the relationship and be who they are. And this can be very damaging, because often, that person on the other end, believes that they're building an authentic relationship with you. And they don't realize until it's too late that actually I've been competing with a person that you have in your mind. And because the person in your mind is the person you can control, how am I going to live up to your expectations, if you're not allowing me to be my authentic self in this relationship. And the reason why this is also important is because when you realize that someone is being their authentic self, you have to use discernment to say, you know what, thank you for being authentic, but I don't think we're aligned. I don't think we're aligned. Sometimes it comes down to, we just are not for each other. Because you are a in your genuine self. And in my mind, I'm telling myself, you can be this person, and I want you to be this person, but you're telling me I don't want to be the person that you created in your head. And so at some point, you have to accept me for me, or you have to decide if you're going to let me go. 

Robin | Absolutely. Which is, which is what we don't want to do a step into more grief, however. So this is you say, like believe people when they show you who they are, and listen to them when they are vocal about their truth and desires. Yes, thank you, you know, if somebody says to you, I, you're, you want you want children, let's say it's something that's in your heart, and you are like that is your life's path, something, however, you're going to make it happen. That's what you feel like you want in your life. And this person could have all the things that you thought you needed and wanted in a relationship. But they don't want children. You need to take that truth and accept it. And understand that they're not going to it's not up to you to change their mind. Right. Yeah.

Minaa | It's not fair. And that's the thing, it's not fair to stay with someone in hopes that you can convince them to change their minds.

Robin | That's right. Right. And you say you say this as well, Amina, which I thought was so powerful, you say that, often we do end to end and find ourselves in these situations where we are trying to kind of manip, manipulate, right, the relationship, the other person, and also changing our behaviors. Right? You say that it's a can talk about that to Minaa how you're, it's like you're morphing yourself to be more attractive or better, so that they will change their mind or change themselves.

Minaa | Right? Exactly. You know, there are times where people who may struggle with self worth or struggle with their worth, or may have even have anxious attachment styles where they feel that they have to earn love and in order for somebody to care for them. It is rooted in their acts, not just them being who they are. They feel like they have the morph their personality. They feel like they have to conform and change their values and belief systems because maybe their whole entire life they have been searching for love. They may have not gotten love from their parents and often when we do not get love from our parents that crumbles the foundation, because that is the thing that helps build us up into healthy adults. And so we find ourselves kind of mimicking a lot of patterns from our past, we are fighting to be seen and heard. But we think in order to be seen and heard, we have to conform, and we have to change parts of ourselves. And often that can happen when you're dating, where you're searching to be loved so much that you believe that just to even use the example you talked about, I know I want children and I know I want to be married, but this person is paying me attention. And what if nobody else is going to give me this level of attention. So maybe I do need to abandon my dreams and my desires. But what ends up happening is that leads to a state of resentment.

Robin | Right

Minaa | That leads to you being dissatisfied in the relationship that leads to you sometimes feeling depressed in that relationship. And it leads to a great sense of regret, you know, and it actually causes a huge rupture in the relationship. Because remember, while you're stifling your truth, and pretending to be this person, your partner thinks they know the authentic you. And so now your partner is shocked and taken aback, that this whole time you were with them, you were plotting and planning and hoping that they would become someone else, so that you could get the thing that you truly, truly wanted. And that wasn't built on an authentic relationship. This person said that they didn't want children. And you're like, well, maybe they're going to change their mind. But I need this relationship because I want to feel love. But I know I want kids. And so maybe if I stick around long enough, or if I show them baby photos, or if I bring them to all the baby showers, they're going to change their mind. And they're going to say, you know what, I'm making a big mistake, when really, you're the person who's making a big mistake, 

Robin | Right.

Minaa | By believing that you have to stay in this thing, in order to be happy, and in order to be satisfied. You know, and I think those are one of the things that we really have to reconcile with, we're loss is a big part of life. And loss is hard. You know, we're doing all of these things, because we just don't want to grieve, 

Robin | Right you don't want I think we are just so grieve. Like I just, I took a course on grieving, because, you know, I've had a lot we've we've all had grief in our lives, a lot of grief and grief will continue. But we're not taught how to grieve. We're not taught the importance of grieving, because no matter what, you can't run away from it, it'll just it'll the compound. And somehow, some way it's going to have to come out but or be lived through and felt, right. But the importance those skills of grieving are so important. So Minaa, you talk about attraction and having your type. So let's let's dive into that. Because I really loved how you explained it. You say because, of course you've got you've had people in your practice and people you're you're interacting with in your community, that we're all saying this, right? It's like, I keep attracting the wrong person. How am I finding like, why am I finding myself in these? It's like, different package. Same kind of situation. Right? I'm attracting the same person, can you can you talk about the attraction and type? And how are we unpack that? 

Minaa | Yeah,I think to give it a simplified unpacking your type is rooted in your preferences. I will hear people say all the time, I'm attracting the wrong person all the time. And I really have to take a step back and say, Are you really attracting the wrong people? Or is it that you're attracting numerous types of people, but you're filtering out a certain type that is based off your preferences? Some people say I only attract XYZ. And if I go, I don't Is that actually true? Because you just told me a story about somebody who actually tried to take you on a date, but you thought they were unattractive. Right? Or you thought that they were too short. 

Robin | Right okay, exactly

Minaa | They didn't have a good enough job. But they're still attracted to you. Yeah, like you're a magnet that is only pulling in one specific type of person, you're pulling in all types of people. The problem is you have a filter. And when you pull in certain type of people, you start to weed certain people out. And you're weeding them out based on the things that you like, and your preferences. So the moment you say, I don't meet people who want to take me on dates, I don't meet people who are emotionally immature and who are emotionally mature. I don't meet people who have XYZ qualities, I might say, but what about that person? You might say well, yeah, they have all this cool All these Well, I don't think short men. Well, there you have it, standing in whose way, the short person's fault that they're short, but you decided you don't want to date short men, I'm going to use heterosexual relationships here. And a man will say that I've decided that I only want to date a woman of a particular caliber or a different body type or all of these different things. And so we start to filter people out. Now, the next level is once we start to filter people out. The problem is, we all have different windows of tolerances, when it comes to the things that we embrace, and deal with in relationships. And so you can attract someone and decide that this person does fit particular preferences that I have. But this is where the red flags, yellow flags and green flags come in that I think is actually a more important part to the conversation than type. Because some of us are actually attracted to people who exhibit red flags, because we think red flags are green flags. And so you're saying I only attract extra type of person. But what I'm hearing is you have normalized a particular type of behavior. And as time goes on, right, you allow one thing to slide, then you allow the second thing to slide, then you allow the 13th thing to slide and you realize that this is not a healthy relationship. And so I think when we're thinking about the type of people we interact, attract into our lives with the type of people we date, we really have to look at it from a nuanced lens, because it's not just, I only attract emotionally immature men, it's bigger than that it is much deeper than that. Right. And it's really all about one understanding, what do you define as a red flag, or a green flag? Because the moment you meet someone, if they're presenting with a particular problem or a particular issue, you have to ask yourself, why do I continue this relationship? What am I searching for in this relationship? And what do I think I'm going to get out of it? If I continue down dating this person, right. And so it's about understanding, what is the sign that is going to help me recognize that no, I cannot move further with this person. Now another thing that we have to understand about type and attraction is recognizing that sometimes what we're looking for, is very limited. And I think a lot of people struggle with that as well. And what I mean by that is, we might say that I want a person who, you know, I don't know, just just giving out a random example, I want a person with a particular feature or a particular job or a particular quality. But my social circles are not reflective of the type of people that I want to date. Right. And so it's a variety of things that can impact one, the type of people that you meet, I want to use another example where we're all working majority of people are working from home right now, you know, and they'll say, I'm not attracting anyone. And then I'll say, well, tell me about your lifestyle. And they'll say, Well, I wake up, I cook breakfast, then I sit at my desk all day, then I turn on Netflix, then I hop in the shower, if I feel like it, then I go back in the bed. And I'm like, oh, so like where's your social life, I know you're working from home, but like, when have the opportunity for you to actually be outside? Oh, well, I don't go outside. And I also order my groceries online through the app so that I don't have to go to the grocery store. I also schedule my hair appointments, if my person is willing to come make home visits, or if they don't, I just jump in my car drive there. And I'm not really finding someone at the salon right. And so

Robin | You're expecting this person to fall out of the sky.

Minaa | Right, right. And so you see how I encourage people to recognize the nuances around attraction. Because I think a lot of us just believe that attraction is I'm standing here, and only one particular person only wants to date me. And we don't factor in our filters. We don't factor in the people that we reject. Right, we will say that nobody wants us but then reject people on a daily basis because we don't want them. And so there's so much nuance and so much that exists in the gray area. And that is pretty much what I speak to in the book when it comes to understanding your type. And I also break that down in recognizing what are some red flags? What are some green flags? What are the ideologies that you're bringing into these relationships? What are your preferences and standards? Because all of those things are grouped together. They're not separate silos.

Robin | I love that. Yep. And you talk about changing your qualifiers. Because if you're, if you are finding yourself in unhealthy relationship after relationship, it's like it is this is the time for introspection.

Minaa | Exactly. Yeah, it's time for self attunement. It's time for you to take a break and say you know what, every single time I do go on a date, I'm noticing there is a pattern here. But I am the person who was selecting these people. And I think that is a part of type and attraction that we have to recognize. We believe these people are magically popping up into our lives, and they're not How did you get on that date, you gave consent to go on that date. Right. And so you have to ask yourself, what has happened, and I keep making the same choices. And my choices are rooted in patterns. It's rooted in, again, things that I may have normalized, it's rooted in certain qualifiers that I have for a person. And maybe those qualifiers are actually unhealthy. You know, in our society, a common theme might be, well, I think this person is super attractive, but they have a very terrible attitude and personality, and you're going to need that personality for that relationship to thrive. So you can't choose someone solely based on their income, you can't choose someone solely based on their height, you can't choose someone solely based on their body type. Because those are not things that actually carry a relationship forward, attraction is important to be able to look at your partner and feel an attractive connection to them. But you have to understand that that is not the thing that keeps a relationship going. And so you have to be reflective enough to say, what's happening on the spectrum of dating and what I put into relationships. Yes.

Robin | And I this is that was so much of the perspective and the learning that I got reading from your, your reading your book, Minaa was, we have to, we have to look at all of these things, everything and people around us from this bigger perspective and ourselves. Right? There's not just one or two factors, it's so many. Right? And you and the other thread in your book that I was so appreciate it was the healing, right. And you talk about how healing is just a life, like this is healing your mind, right. We're talking about healing your mind right now around like, all our belief systems and how things are, if you're dating, right, you have to, and you're on a healing journey for your whole life, every day of your life. You don't have to be healed to to be dating, or so there's just a lot of different lessons that you talk about around healing, that I really appreciate it.

Minaa | Thank you. You know, it's was important for me to deconstruct what healing is, because I think a lot of people have mixed messages or unhealthy messages of what healing is a common theme that I will hear is you're supposed to be fully healed before having a child, you're supposed to be fully healed before getting into a relationship. You're supposed to be fully healed before you start that business or before you do XYZ we can fill in the blank. And the reality of there's no such thing as being fully healed. You know, healing is something that we are going to be doing up until the day that we die.

Robin | We die, you say that I was like, wow, that is so true. 

Minaa | Yes, it is something that will continuously manifest for us, and the reason why is because guess what? Adversity shows up at any time in life. Right. And so the thing that you thought you were healed from will show up and go toe to toe with you, you know, 

Robin | Especially in partnership, you say 

Minaa | Exactly, yep, exactly. You know, I talk about it in that context that you can talk about it in the context of parenting, you have a child and you, you say you're supposed to be fully healed. And next thing you know, I'm living through a pandemic. Nobody ever gave me a manual on how to parent through a pandemic. Nobody gave me a manual on how to parent a child who is triggering trauma in you, trauma that you suppress trauma that you thought you healed from, and now my kid is doing things that is actually bringing up a lot of emotions in me that I actually thought I healed from.

Robin | You say you say like, you know, I am, you know, your responsibility is to parent that child in the very best, most loving way you can or know how, in the meantime, you are being you have to parent yourself because you're like being so triggered with his trauma from your own childhood. Like, so. There's no such thing as is, like you said, we're always going to be healing something. 

Minaa | Always, you know, and I think that it's about recognizing that this is a journey. It is not a race, it is not something that has an expiration date, you can always wake up and choose to give yourself the life that you think you deserve. And that is going to be built brick by brick, up until the day that you die. You know, and I think it's really important for people to show themselves grace, and compassion and know that they have an opportunity to start all over. Because guess what, if you, if you hope to continue to live a long life, future you is going to think you. So there is no such thing as it's too late. Because who do you want to be tomorrow? Who do you want to be next week? Right? If the moment you say it's too late, creates disbelief that your life is literally about to end and that there's nothing else to live for, but you have you that you have to live for. Right. And I think it's really important for people to show themselves grace and compassion with this journey. And know that there are also going to be times where you thought you're, you're healing and you, you feel that you're, you know, making strides, and you'll have a stumble, you'll have a fall, you'll have a setback, and you can still bounce back from that thing. And there's also opportunities to learn from that thing. And so I really just want people to embrace the importance of what it means to actually evolve. Because when you're striving to grow, there is no limitation on growth of plants here that I have to keep trimming down because they just won't stop growing. And I don't have the space. I don't have the space for this plant to be all over my floor I have a dog, so much going on here. And that's how I see healing, it will keep growing as long as you are watering and feeding yourself. And so I just want people to have the courage as well as the desire, but the hope that they can get up and they can start right now while they are listening to this, they can jump into action mode and start right now. Because it doesn't matter. If you you've already put in 40 years in life, or 50 years in life, there's still tomorrow. And I would hope that you want your tomorrow to be one of the best days ever. And so put in the effort right now when you can.

Robin | Wow. I think we're going to close on that Minaa. Because that was that was so well said and just perfect. I have just so loved our conversation today. I really appreciate you and all the work you're doing. It's just you're an amazing teacher, and support. And you're encouraging all of us to to go inside and heal and also reach out to each other. Like the importance of community you talk so much about that in your book. So Minaa, thank you so much for being with us today.

Minaa | Thank you, Robin.

Robin | I wanted to close with a blessing. And this is I do this with every podcast guest because it's based on your work. And you I'm quoting you throughout this blessing so that people can leave with your wisdom and your light. May we understand that healing work means awakening to personal responsibility. Healing happens when we give ourselves permission to experience life and learn lessons along the way. May we remember that we are wired for connection. And that healing happens best in community. And may we remember that healing is a lifelong journey that takes time never expires and can begin at any age.

Minaa | Yes, yeah. Thank you.

Robin | Thank you, Minaa B

Minaa | Thank you, Robin. Thank you.

Robin | Thank you so much for listening. Visit Realloveready.com to continue learning with us. Please rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the tools and guidance you need to form more loving relationships and create positive change in your life. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well. Many blessings and much love.