Natalie Lue - Unlocking The Power of Saying No

In this episode, Robin sits down with Natalie Lue, author, speaker, podcaster, and the visionary behind one of the world's longest-running self-help blogs, Baggage Reclaim. Together they delve into the transformative power of saying “no” and explore the subtle nuances of five people-pleasing styles. Natalie shares practical steps from her latest book, The Joy of Saying No, guiding us to break free from these habits, reclaim boundaries, and embrace a more authentic life. Tune in for a candid conversation that leaves you inspired and ready to confidently say no, unlocking a more fulfilling yes to the life you want. 

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Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.

Transcript

Robin Ducharme | Today I am speaking with Natalie Lue. Natalie is a writer, speaker podcaster and founder of one of the longest running self help blogs in the world Baggage Reclaim. She helps people understand how their emotional baggage is interfering with their ability to live lives happily and authentically. Today, we had the best conversation about her newest book, The Joy of Saying No. Natalie has identified five people pleasing styles. I'm sure after listening, you'll be able to identify the one or more ways you exhibit people pleasing behaviors in your life. Ultimately, it's about us becoming aware of when we are saying yes instead of no. And then taking steps to be more aligned with what we truly want and desire. Natalie offers a plan steps we can all take to stop people pleasing, reclaim boundaries, and say yes to the life we want. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. 

Hello, everyone and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I am joined by our guest, Natalie Lue all the way from the UK. Thank you for joining us, Natalie.

Natalie Lue | Thank you for having me, Robin.

Robin Ducharme | I've been looking forward to talking to Natalie because I've been preparing for our conversation with my best friend Kirsten. And we have so much fun talking about the books we've read, and what we learn personally and relating our own stories. And the book we're gonna talk about today that you you've written, it's called The Joy of Saying N, a simple plan to stop people pleasing, reclaim boundaries and say yes to the life you want. Have you been receiving a lot of excellent feedback about your book, Natalie? 

Natalie Lue | I have been, which is always a lovely feeling. It's amazing when people are like, oh, my God, I saw myself so clearly yes. Like on those pages, like how did you manage to capture that? It's been amazing to hear how the book is impacted people.

Robin | I think it's, I think it's fantastic. And that you give some really good examples that you're like, oh, yeah, that's me, or I know that that person in my life, that's them. And but all in all, what I think I learned is, and we'll go through the five, the five ways that people pleasing shows up. But I think what I learned around this is like, we're all doing the same thing. Right? It doesn't like you know, your tactic, your way of doing it is different. But the end result is, is people pleasing.

Natalie | Yeah, this is 

Robin | We just go about it in different ways. 

Natalie | Yeah. And this is exactly what I wanted to get out. Because I found that people were often mischaracterizing people pleasing, either seeing it as oh my God, like people pleasing means like, you're such a doormat, or that, oh, people pleasing is a sign of virtue. You know, it's you know, it's a sign of an amazing person I am, you know, my virtuous qualities. And, or even though it's like, I will only some people, people pleasers and, like, I don't have a problem with people pleasing. And actually, we all have it to some degree. And, but we're motivated by different things like some people pleasers are motivated by being good, for instance, and some people are very driven by the sense of being needed. And unless you get a sense of what it is that drives you, what tends to show up for you, then sort of generalizing about yourself and mischaracterizing yourself is only just going to lead to you recreating the same problems again and again. 

Robin | Right. So tell us how you ended up understanding so much about people pleasing, and how you ended up writing this book, like tell us a little bit of history because you do share your story in your book, which is great, and how you got there, but I would love it for our listeners to hear.

Natalie | I was a lifelong people pleaser. I mean I am I would call myself a recovering people pleaser now because I'm aware of it and I have been going out of my way to break out of the habit over the last sort of 18 years. But people pleasing was as natural to me as breathing. It was as I learned, really, from the get go, I picked up this message that it was really important for me to be good. And there were demands on me at times for me to be perfect that I had to be better. And I was repeatedly received messaging about how I needed to make the most amount of effort, the best efforts. And I like

Robin | Sorry, just to interrupt you for a second, Natalie, this was this is when you were growing up, like this is part of your childhood, right?

Natalie | It's just part of my childhood. 

Robin | Okay. 

Natalie | And so, you know, I was this little girl whose whose parents had broken up pretty young, and who had the sense of being really responsible, from a very young age, I felt responsible for, in some way for my parents no longer being together, I felt responsible for my younger brother, then I only had one at that time, I felt responsible for my mother's happiness, I had the sense that it was important not to make her feel bad, because I still love my father, I felt it was important to try to be good, so that my father would visit so that he would turn up on time so that he would be there. And it just starts rolling on and on. And obviously, this is a kid who is internalizing experiences and making decisions that basically say, I'm not really very good, like, I'm not good enough. And I need to try harder. My mother often seems so unhappy, particularly with me. And of course, this is from a child's perspective. But this set the foundation for people pleasing, because I grew up to be somebody who did not like myself, in fact, who I would say hated myself, I had a pattern really from my from the get go, and my teenage years of being involved with emotionally unavailable, sometimes shady boys, and it led to becoming emotionally unavailable and shady men. I've only ever had one healthy romantic relationship, which is with my now husband, who, you know, we've been together for almost 18 years. And the what I experienced in childhood, you know, I experienced emotional, verbal, sometimes, physical abuse, I was constantly anxious as a child. And I didn't realize how much of that drove my behavior and choices, that I was always about efforts and wanting to be liked and avoiding being rejected. And just wanting to keep myself safe, which is how so many of us go about life. And 

Robin | Yes

Natalie | We, you know, we're doing all of this stuff, you know, the chasing after the wrong men staying in, you know, very unhealthy relationships eventually led to aside from my self esteem plummeting, I ended up being very unwell with an immune system disease called sarcoidosis, which I wasn't diagnosed with until early 2004. But actually, I started experiencing the symptoms in 2003. But it probably been around for a bit, my body had basically shut down and was kind of turning attacking itself. So as losing, losing the fight in my left eye, I had problems with my spleen with my lungs, there were lumps throughout my body, I struggling to breathe, struggling to walk, it was just horrendous. What was I doing, I was having an affair with a co worker. That was my biggest priority trying to win him over trying to get him to leave his girlfriend. And it really took my health being at rock bottom. And being told if you don't go on steroids now or again, but this time for life, that you're going to be dead by 40, it shook something in that conversation jolted me out of this people pleasing comer that I had been in for, you know, 28 years at that point. And what was fortunate I think about that was that at the time I'd been writing. I'd had a personal blog, I think that yeah, I've had a personal blog for about a year or so. No, two years at that point. And when I spoke out loud on that blog, and that blog used to be called Tired of Men and Some Other Things That Drive a 20 Something Around the Twist. And I was talking about like just, you know, commuting into London and the frustrations of dating men and you saying that you want to be you know, in a relationship, but you're always bored by the nice guys type of thing. And I'm just talking about my life. So I just, you know, casually mentioned, you know, oh, I seem to have a penchant for emotionally unavailable men, who tend to be mommy's boys and that I actually don't like myself. And I poured all this out, and I thought I was weird. and all of these people were like, you're describing me.

Robin | Me too, like that's what people are saying, I relate to that. That's, that's my situation as well. Yeah.

Natalie | And I'm not going well, this is a little bit weird because I always thought that I was a weirdo, and unlovable of all these people who are saying, I'm grappling with this stuff, too. I've been doing the same stuff as you. And that prompted me to start writing Baggage Reclaim a blog that I started in September 2005, really, as a way to explore the complexities of trying to forge intimate relationships, when you are terrified of abandonment, when you are a people pleaser, and a perfectionist and over giver her and all the things. And at the same time, you know, before starting that, I'd also told that doctor who said I need to go and start was live, I told him no, no, I need more time. I need to explore my other options. He thought it was crazy. But I did go into remission, eight months later, and that was through, I really genuinely believe that behind every issue that we're coming up against in life, something in amongst all of that requires us to figure out where we need to say no, so that we can figure out what we need to say yes to any troubles we're coming up against, it's got a boundary issue in there somewhere. And when I said no, that day in the doctor's office, that I started choosing myself. And when I decided to prioritize myself, to prioritize my health, to invest in myself to explore other options. When I then heard about the word boundaries, that I didn't have any information about boundaries, all I knew was that I have to figure out how to start saying no, and expressing my limits, and also being more truthful about who I am and what I need, want, expect feel and think. And essentially what I've been doing for I suppose eight of 18 years through the blog and Baggage Reclaim and and for the podcast, and for my books and so forth, is basically supposed to be live in a crash test dummy and living my life out loud and sharing with people, the another way to be how to break the cycle of people pleasing so that we can reclaim ourselves from this emotional baggage and move forward with love care, trust and respect.

Robin | Yes, I think what you're saying is, you have to get to a place of being brutally honest with yourself. Right? Because it's like, and that and that takes that takes effort and consciousness to actually get to know yourself, right? Like that would be like. So it's it's obviously these two things go hand in hand, rather than looking outside yourself for how can I manipulate this situation to be accepted or loved. 

Natalie | Amen

Robin | Right, which is really what that is? It's like you you need to understand what are your true needs? What are your true desires?

Natalie | And you're not going to find that by pleasing people. Oh, sorry.

Robin | No, no, you're not you're absolutely not. You say people pleasing is consciously and unconsciously suppressing and repressing your needs, your desires, your expectations, your feelings, your opinions, to put other people first, so that you gain attention, affection, approval, love validation, avoid conflict, all of that. And I think a lot of us and I really like, you know, you go into how, you know, our generation, not our children, how we're raising our children, because it's different. But our generation, we were raised in what you call the age of obedience. Makes perfect sense to me. I mean, a lot of us were raised as like, do as I say, not as I do. Don't question me, like, I remember, like, we've all heard this from our parents, right? Like, I'm 46. And I'm, you know, like all my cousins, all my friends. Are we the same age? You know, I remember like, as a little girl saying to my, my parents, well, as I was even a teenager, whatever, like, my parents would say no, and you're like, why? Can you please explain to me why you're saying no, right now? Right? I use want to know the why. Right? And they're like, because I said so. Right? Like, there's nothing there's no other explanation. Like you just accept it. And that is it. So you're talking about the age of obedience and how it's not about having your voice is definitely not being heard. You're not even allowed to be heard. And it's like, be quiet. Shut your mouth. It's like,

Natalie | I'll give you something to cry about. The you know, and you asking why is like this back chat. You've been disrespectful. It's, you know, do as I say, not as I do, you know, obey me, unquestionably. And look, our parents, grandparents and ancestors before us, they will also raised in the age of obedience as well.

Robin | Yes, this is not I'm not here to blame. This is not a blame game. But it's just understanding 

Natalie | Exactly 

Robin | Where this comes from.

Natalie | I thought it was so important for us to recognize that for hundreds of years we have been in this age of obedience. And how could we possibly expect to wake up as grown ass adults who, after spending their entire childhoods being told that you must obey authorities. You know, don't question them. You got to trust unquestionably, I've know people from church

Robin | Right.

Natalie | Or, you know, extended family, or friends or whoever it is, and you just do what you're told. And that the most important thing for you to do and be is to be compliant. How can we possibly expect that we're just going to wake up an adult and be like, oh, yeah, like, I'm totally fine with turning around and saying,

Robin | No, and you make you make such a good point, Natalie, I think about how I have had to re learn, like, learn this very valuable lesson around that. Because, you know, that's dangerous. You can't just assume that somebody that's older than you, in a position of power, that you just have to automatically trust, trust is earned. And I sure as hell didn't know what it's like, for instance, it guides so much of how, like, you have to protect yourself, protect your heart, protect yourself, and that's boundaries, all this stuff. But I think about you when I was dating in my younger years, and I know a lot of people can relate to this. And you can, too, you talked about how you're you weren't in healthy relationships until you met your husband. And it's like you're dating somebody, that person, you have to get to know that person over a very long period of time, so that you can trust them. It's not just an automatic thing. But we're taught as little ones, to trust people automatically. So that is, right. That's a seriously dangerous thing. For example,

Natalie | Totally. And the thing is, you know, and I say this in the book, when we're children an authority is anyone who we perceive to have power over us. Yeah. So that is often grownups. And there was this sense that any grownup who presented themselves in life was like, oh, well just got to do as you're told. That means that the stranger who tells you to hate get into my car, or whatever, you're getting conflicting messages from from people. And of course, look, this, the way that we were taught to be was, how our parents, grandparents, and so forth, had learned to survive. But of course, society has evolved. And we're also seeing the outcome of all of this. And this sense that what happens is when we're adults, that same feeling of oh, that person is an authority, even though they're not will, bring out the same compliance in us. And we are also you and I've already said, we're the same age, we grew up in a time, where people will be like, oh, my God, like he or she, they're like, they're so popular. And they go to church, and he work as a teacher, or they do this, or they do that. And so it was almost like, well, that's it. That's all you need to know, off your pop, have a nice life with that person. And then you get into a relationship with this person. And they'll be like, okay, hell's going on, and in your head, you're gone. Yeah, but they're popular, and they're good looking. And though, they have a really good job, and they earn really good money. I mean, I always come back to this often in the trailer, for a can't even remember what it's called the Ted Bundy files on Netflix. In the trailer, there's a clip of a woman who says something along the lines of he's good looking, he's intelligent, he's something else. Are you sure you've got the right guy? Like, it's like, how could he possibly be a serial killer? That explains a lot of why we struggle to say no, and why we struggle to recognize when we are in an unhealthy situation, or even when we're in danger. Because we've been given very, very confusing messages about when to say yes, and when to say no, you know, we're told, No is a dirty word. And you know, you need to comply, but also, like, be afraid of strangers, but also don't embarrass me. And don't be a slut. And don't be this. And it's exhausting. It's tedious. It's no wonder. We've gone up anxious, confused, resentful, frustrated, all sorts of things.

Robin | Yeah. So let's go through the five people pleasing styles because I really I was like, I really liked this the stories you share. Just take give an idea about behaviors and how that they show up. So the first one is, the first one is Gooding. And I can relate to this, you know, you'd be a good girl, like, just be good, right? Because that is going to, in all those ways that you're good, you're going to get more love, you're going to, you're going to, you know, well, you'll have more safety, you'll have more back. So let's talk about gooding and how gooding shows up as in people pleasing,

Natalie | You know, the people pleasing styles about our bad, not just how we go about people pleasing, but what's also driving it. And so somebody who has the good in style is very driven by this by wanting to be light, and wanting to be seen. 

Robin | Sounds good.

Natalie | Yeah. And they have an idea which it may have come from their upbringing or amalgamation of things. This is what it means to be a good person, a good something. So a good employee, a good parent, a good Christian, you know, a good partner, whatever it is, and they really try to present as that thing, even if they're doing something, sometimes different from what they're presenting. Or they hold themselves very rigidly to the standard. And the idea is, well, I'm being good. And I'm being well intentioned. So why would anybody take issue with this, I'm, I'm following the rules of life. And that means that if you're trying to be a good person, it's because you're afraid of being a bad person. Let's be real.

Robin | Oh, absolutely. So Natalie, I really related to this one, because I was raised Catholic. And, you know, we went to church every Sunday, most Sundays, you know, and, and I really struggle with this to this day, because I want to be the most loving, caring, generous, all that all of those things, person I can be like, I strive to be that, and I and I find myself tripping up still to this day about like it thinking myself, I just like this self critical voice like Robin, are you being good? Are you being like, like, like, the most loving human being you can be? But at the if you're doing that at the cost of your own self, That's right. I totally, they really differentiate, you have to differentiate between is this is this in my best interest. Right? It's like this kind of, because it can be very confusing. If you're looking at it from the religious, not the religious, but just like this altruistic place.

Natalie | Absolutely. I mean, I even though I'm not Catholic, I essentially had a Catholic upbringing, I was brought up in one of the most Catholic places on Earth, Ireland, and guilt is bred into you. It's bred into you to feel guilty. I went to school with nuns walking around. And even though I wasn't Catholic, I had the Catholic upbringing, I did all the classes, I went to church, all the rest, even though it was technically in a Protestant Church of Ireland or Church of England. And what was fascinating was to acknowledge it was only really, when I got into my 30s, when I was a jeeze, I will sometimes hear certain things that sort of pass it word for stressed out about certain things that's like, oh my god, that is the guilt. Because Catholicism has a lot of guilt, that religion full stop. But there is a lot, there tends to be a lot of guilt. And this is fear of being like this bad person. Good girl, you and also a whole lot of sense. I think, particularly when we start talking about religion, there's fear of being selfish. And you know, it's like, well, what's good for everybody is good for you. Which we know that that is not always the case. And so they can we can feel quite conflicted. With this fear of being a bad person in fear of going to hell, there's all sorts of things that we can be worried about, depending on what we've internalized through our religious upbringing. So I totally relate to that.

Robin | Yeah. Okay. So then the other so I related to gooding for sure, I'm still I'm a recovering gooder, but I'm still like, I really just want to be a good person. But like, I think I can't do that at the cost of my own myself, which is where we're getting to here. 

Natalie | Yeah,

Robin | So then you've got efforting. 

Natalie | Yeah. And actually, before we go to everything I want to add, you know, what happens with gooding and really, with any of the styles, but particularly with gooding is you're performing at your idea of being a good person. And so what happens is that it can put you at conflict with who you actually are. Because your idea of that and then your actual needs might be at odds with each other. And so you start to go against yourself at times, and that's where as you say, that the compromising of yourself the hurting of yourself comes in.

Robin | And it makes sense to me, Natalie way that you, you know, you share you just did around how you ended up having this chronic illness, right? It's like when you are continually sacrificing your, what you need in yourself, you're hurting yourself over and over repeatedly. And how is that going to manifest? It's going to manifest in resentment, anger, illness. I mean, all this makes sense to me, right? Because you're constantly compromising what you actually need to be healthy, within like holistically. 

Natalie | Yeah, all people pleasing puts you at odds with yourself, you are not telling your mind and body the truth, you're saying one thing on the outside or doing something on the outside and feeling, thinking basically being another thing on the inside, smiling on the outside, fuming, you know, fuming crying, whatever it is on the inside. And that is a problem. Because if we don't pay attention eventually to the signs, I'll make you pay attention. 

Robin | Oh exactly. Okay, so efforting, you say you were you were definitely effort efforted.

Natalie | Yeah, so you know, we can dabble across the style. Some of it, you know, some of us have very strong, 

Robin | Yes let's do it. 

Natalie | In one. But for some of us, you know, we'll tap into a few of them. For me, I'm strongly an effort to, I think there's definitely elements of the others. But efforting is where it's at for me, somebody who has the efforting style is driven really by this need to try to prove themselves as being good enough. And it's not enough for them to give the appearance of being good. It's not enough to be like, hey, I'm a good like, it's effort. It's like, I've got the receipts to prove this. And so they about being the best, doing the best, trying to be perfect, which means that we are also the most likely to burn out because our way of pleasing others is using efforts. And what happens is that we end up exploiting ourselves spreading ourselves thin, and basically, eventually burning out. For me, I think because so much of it was like, you've got to try hard. And it's important for me to point this out. And point out that and I say this in the book, that culturally as well, you can actually be conditioned as part of, for instance, the immigrant experience, or because you are from some form of sort of diverse minority, you know, struggling background, where it's drummed into you, listen, you're, you're part of being a good person, showing that you are worthy of being here proving that you're not all the stereotypes that people say about you, is you must go, you must do 100 times more than everybody else, you must try harder, probably have one, you know, you gotta be the minority. You can't be sitting in it. Oh, look, look at look at the size of you, you as prove that you're not lazy. All of this stuff that gets drummed into us. And so it's like, you've got to prove that you are a good citizen. And you better go off and get yourself a degree, you know, in African and Caribbean culture, for instance, there is this like it used to be probably studies really is you need to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant, something where it can go, you done good, you know, you are not the lazy stereotype. And if you can come back with a few masters, you know, a few MBAs at the same time, all the better. It's like,

Robin | Oh for sure. 

Natalie | Yeah. And of course that cuts across lots of cultures.

Robin | Absolutely. Absolutely drilled through we I interviewed Nicole Walters, I think about three weeks ago, and she talks about the same thing. And she said like, it's, you know, that person over there, they're getting, they're getting a B, you need to get an A plus. Yeah, they're not, you know, this is just the way it has to be. 

Natalie | Yeah. 

Robin | Don't you dare come home with any BS and your report card, you have to be a student. And you have to like, that's just that's totally expected of you.

Natalie | Yes. Does that's that's my upbringing. Like, don't like down to a tee. 

Robin | Yeah.

Natalie | And it's important to as well understand about efforting that just like with any star, like we are using people pleasing as a way of gaining self worth, you know, proving ourselves to be good enough, but also of efforting we use this style of people pleasing to control outcomes. So it's like for the more effort I made, the more I the more I've earned the right to have my needs and wants met or to to not be criticized or judged or to be rejected. So of course, we exploit ourselves and then we still experienced rejection and criticism and so forth. And then we're like, oh, my God, I'm not good enough. So everything always comes down to I didn't make enough effort, but that is the efforting experience. Anytime anything goes wrong in your life. The first thought is but I tried so hard. I made so much whenever anything like that you have an efforter thru and thrue. Yes.

Robin | So you give an example in your book about a woman Angeline dating, right? We got to talk about this because this, this would show, this is how efforting would show up in dating. So she goes on, you know, she goes on three dates with a man that she's not even too sure about. Right? She's like, all the red flags. She's six, he's totally dismissing all the red flags. And she overlooked like, so when he backs off, she goes into overdrive, like more effort, more effort, like she puts on this, you know, like, just her sweet face and her positive attitude. And if I do more for this man, and show him that, actually, I'm worth it. Like I put an awful lot of effort here. You better like me, that she's showing she wants to she wants that worthiness from him to be like I'm putting all this effort in. Right? 

Natalie | Yeah. And I was so important for me to share that example, because I think it describes a lot of people's dating experiences, where when they really reflect, they realize I wasn't really even into this person. What happened was, the anxiety kicked in. I went into overdrive, I started making a lot of effort, because I wanted to prove that I was girlfriend or boyfriend material that I was worthy of a relationship. And then because I was doing that, I started to feel like hold on a second, like, I've done all these things, like where's the relationship? So what's happening is you're going around making all this effort, which then creates the sense of you're owed a relationship. So then you go, and harder and harder, ignoring yourself, and then the person isn't interested in. It's like, whoa, hold on a second, I tried so hard. But you don't even realize that what motivates you to go after somebody in the first place, Isn't interest. It's anxiety.

Robin | Yes, but I also think this shows up in so many relationships now like marriages, right? long term relationships, it's like, you're doing the dishes, you're clean, like, you're that you're the house cleaner. You're doing all your running all the errands for the kids, you're you're managing everything. And at the end of the day, you're feeling like your partner is not pulling their weight because you're making all this effort. And then at the end of the day, or you're so resentful and angry, because actually, it's not you're not first of all, you're not boundaried, but you're not being a clear communicator, either of your needs. You're just thinking over over effort. Oh, yeah. He talked about hinting to. So I think like, I think efforting can be can like, oh, yeah, it shows up in a lot of different ways for many, many people.

Natalie | You'll know it if you keep in school, or in your relationship where it feels like, oh, my God, I was matched with stuff that I've I've done that oh, my God, I've done so much. What the hell's she doing? What's he doing? Yeah, efforting.

Robin | Yeah. Okay, so that avoiding this one. And so this is like, I just love the fact that you break them down into five, five parts, because we can all see these behaviors in different ways. But it's all people pleasing. 

Natalie | Yeah, avoiding I think, is the one that I think has shocked quite a few people because it's so out of view. And it never even occurred to them. That it was actually people pleasing, and avoiding as a people pleasing style is the hiding, blending, merging, basically, to avoid conflict of any kind trying to avoid discomforting others. So that, of course, you know, that acept love prove whatever, but also in the hopes that they're going to meet your needs and wants. And also, it's like, well, hold on a second, I always go along with whatever you want. So why would you criticize me? Why would we ever have a problem? And so, 

Robin | Right,

Natalie | Someone who's listening might recognize themselves and it because you know, they're the type where, What do you want to do tonight? I want to do what you want to do. Where do you fancy eating? I'm happy to eat wherever you want to eat. So you will, but somebody listening might recognize themselves in that. But what has been quite interesting has been to hear from people like, oh, my gosh, is this is my partner. I now it's suddenly becoming, because they would feel so frustrated and resentful. Like, why is this? Why are they doing this? You know, why is it they can't be straight with me? You know, why is it that then when, you know, when I try to bring up something, wow, I went along with what you wanted, and you were perfectly happy with it then. So it's not my problem if you don't like it now. And I say, Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. So you didn't actually want to do this. And so it's the sense of like, I am going to avoid myself and avoid bringing up anything that is remotely uncomfortable, because that's my way of pleasing you and everybody just like don't like create conflict or criticism. So they'll also be the people who this is big elephant in the room. You know, this big family secret or whatever it might be. Somebody who has the avoiding style will be like my way of pleasing you is we are just never going to talk about this and then they are completely confused when somebody's like, this isn't working for me. Because why wouldn't you want somebody who never bring something up with you. Because we want intimacy.

Robin | That's right. It's like we, this is exactly what you say you see people pleasing, blocks intimacy. And, you know, I think it is very common for in a relationship that some, one person, like, doesn't want conflict, they were raised in a house, like, when conflicts bad, like, we don't talk about our problems in front of the kids, they don't have problems, first of all, right. And we're definitely doing it behind closed doors that kids are raised to believe, like, actually, my parents had the most amazing relationship in the world, because they never ever fought. And that's not true. Your parents absolutely argued, you just didn't hear it. So they're taught to avoid any sort of hard conversations, any sort of conflict, because they're not taught how to do it in in a healthy way, there's no modeling. So you're avoiding all this stuff. 

Natalie | Amen, I mean, when people say to me, Natalie, I've been in my relationship for one to 5,10,20,30 years. And we never argue that's not a badge of honor. That's a problem. Nobody is happy all the time. Nobody is agreeing all the time. Somebody's lying. And that'd be a lot of passive aggression there, sure, maybe you're never arguing. But what's happening is like, sometimes you get a bit of weird silent treatment, sometimes you get cut out of things. Sometimes the first time maybe you know that something's up with something is just like, when you kind of get like, random surprise, kind of weird issues kind of coming up. And then they kind of play dumb about the whole thing. But it was passive aggression. But you can't have intimacy without also having conflict, not conflict for conflict sake. But conflict as a way to deepen your understanding of each other. And if you're both presenting as I never have an issue with you, you're lying. Like that is not integrated at all.

Robin | Guaranteed the other day. I think you did bring this up in the book. And if not, it might have been another interview I listened. of you was, ghosting. 

Natalie | Oh, yeah. 

Robin | Okay. That is like ghosting is absolutely avoiding having that hard conversation with somebody. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It's just like, you know what, I really enjoyed our time together. But you're not for me, like you're not my, like, it's just not going to work for us. But thank you so much, right. But that conversation is way too much for an avoider. So they think that they're actually saving somebody the harm by just like ghosting, but but in a way, but it's definitely passive aggressive. So ghosting, I think is a complete avoiding your, your kind of, right?

Natalie | Totally. Yeah, and what's interesting as well about ghosting is often in the stories I've heard about ghosting, what makes it so confusing is prior to the ghosting person was like, Damn, I'm gonna call I'm having a great time, it felt like the best days of their life that they were having the best time. And then crickets, but it's almost as if, as if that same avoider, wanted to give good date and try to create the most positive impression possible. So avoiding having any sort of organising a difficult conversation, so that then they could be like my and I'm out. And then they can kind of come from, like, gave him a good time.

Robin | That is such a good point you make I never actually guess the dynamic is fascinating because oftentimes, that's what we hear right around. Ghosting is like, the other person that person got ghosted, is absolutely shocked. Like, how, like what happened? Like, everything was great. So I never thought about that dynamic. But that's yeah.

Natalie | And also the other reason why people with the avoiding style in particular ghost is because like any people pleaser, we all have a tipping point. Yeah. And so when an avoider has been avoiding and avoiding and avoiding, but they're actually unhappy, they will feel as if I've put up with so much and I've avoided so much and then they reach a point where it's like I've had it I've had enough and they are the ones who will cut and run they will disappear. They will the remove out of your life, they will cut you off stone cold. And in their mind is like I gave everything to you. I was exactly who I want you to be or who you want me to be. And then you basically let me down and I'm out because they don't tell the left hand what the right hand is doing. So the first you know that they're unhappy with you is when I would be gone, or when a blown up at you. 

Robin | Wow, wow,I love this. Okay, so then so then the other one, the next one is saver. 

Natalie | So saving is I think the people pleasing style that I think a lot of people find it easy to recognize, because they already really identify with the sense of giving and fixing and helping and supporting and rescuing. But somebody who has the saving style of people pleasing, does have a need to feel needed. And what you're also seeing is a convergence of both the gooding so there's sort of need to be perceived as being good as being helping and supportive, but also putting some effort behind it, but directing it towards the whole, I've got to be of service to others and sacrificing. And basically, the saving is sacrificing yourself for others in the hope that you will be rewarded, you know, with the attention, affection approval, that they won't leave, that they will depend on you. And so actually, when you have that saving people pleasing style, there is a part of you. And a know it can be uncomfortable to hear that because you need to feel needed, it means you also need to be around people in in situations that have problems. Because how else are you going to be needed? How are you going to be helping, fixing, saving and rescuing.

Robin | The day, like save the day? Right? Like, you know, somebody calls you it's like, there's a fire? You know, not I'm talking I'm not talking about literally a fire. Yeah, like, you know, my life just blew up. I need I need you to save me. Okay, I'm right there. It's just superman, right or superwoman? Like give you one example Natalie about .

Natalie | Do go on.

Robin | I think I think you get the example about your dad, right? Was it your dad? Or was it somebody? I'm sorry. I'm just, I think the maybe it was I'm sorry, but there was there was a father. Well dropped everything for everybody in his life. That's my dad. Yeah, actually. Okay. Yeah, this was something that somebody said about your dad celebration of life, right? Yes. At the end, he was his funeral was like, yeah.

Natalie | He, he, you’re right, they talked about how every story was, he dropped everything. He left his his wifes and my stepmother and kids, my my sisters in the middle of the night to go and do the stuff that others and I remember the the priest, the Reverend be like, you could have just got AA you know, the, I don't know, if you might, you might call the AAA out there. You know, the Automobile Association. Like, why are you calling them out to go and fix your car at two o'clock in the morning when you hook all the AA. So it was an myself, my brother, we're having breakfast the day after the funeral. And I was like, oh, my God, if that just helped even one less person he might have the ability to be more involved in our lives, he might have actually had something to give

Robin | Isn't that interesting?

Natalie | To us. 

Robin | He was a saver. 

Natalie | Yeah. 

Robin | And he sacrificed his his relationship with his own family to be that saver in his life in other people's lives. Wow.

Natalie | Yeah. It's pretty messed up. And he wanted somebody running around being Superman to everybody else. And again, hello, like you're neglecting your own kids. And I'm seeing you around and doing all this stuff. So it feeds into the sense of awareness. I think it's also important as well to recognize as part of the saving that, you know, of all in all people pleasers have the sense of being well intentioned. But I think that saving in particular, when people recognize themselves in it, it feels uncomfortable, because it's a part of the going, but it's how can it be bad to help or to give? But you're giving and you're helping, and you're doing all of this stuff without boundaries, and also on some level, because it is a way of being in control. I'm not saying that you're a controlling person. But you use these as a way to kind of be in charge of situations making yourself feel needed and purposeful. And what can be difficult for people who have the saving style, is that when they experienced criticism, or when people don't want the help or support or they overstep there like, but I was just trying to help I was just, you know, as being well intentioned, I've just been giving oh my God, how could anybody take issue with that? But sometimes you're overstepping boundaries. And the particular area of this list speak to romantic relationships is the fixer uppers rescuing romantic partners. You know, deliberately being involved with people because you see them as a fixer upper project. And because on some level, you seeing yourself as being in charge in the relationship is you know, sort of stepping in, you think that this person will not have a reason to leave because they are dependent on you. And also because they you are giving them so much more than what you perceive anybody else to have done what they could do for themselves, it's like why would they leave and then when they skip off down the road to somebody else. It kills them.

I did so much. I It's just such a yes, it's Yeah, yeah. 

And it's the unsolicited aswell.

Robin | Oh sorry,

Natalie | I was just gonna say it's the unsolicited as well like that, you know, you have to be boundaries around help if you're doing it because on some level you feel and unworthy you because you have to because you have a hidden agenda. It's a problem.

Robin | It is. Okay, the last one is sufferer. 

Natalie | Yeah. So when you have the suffering style of people pleasing, a part of you believes that the more you suffer, the better it makes you as like the good, the gooder, or you are the better person you are. So it's like I bleed for you. And how does that manifests is that because you are driven by an almost need, to feel bad to need to be seen as suffering, you are not going to place yourself in a situation where it doesn't fit that. And so what happens is you are then involved with people who repeatedly overstep your boundaries, you can end up putting yourself in acute need, because you're trying to call attention to a need, it's like, look at me suffering, oh, my gosh, I've, I've let you trash my boundaries, I've let you treat me terribly. Now will you give me a relationship? Now will you let because look how much I've been willing to suffer for you. And so they are often the scapegoat, for instance, in their family dynamics, they can find themselves being at best taken advantage of at worst abused. And they're in this identity of suffering, and that they think of how much I'm pleasing you by suffering, not realizing that actually, it's just adding more and more to their own pain. And it's like, they think there's a tipping point of suffering, where finally, they will be recognized. And they will be seen as worthy and good enough, they also hope. And this is really the case with all people pleasing, but particularly with suffering, that the person will recognize how badly they are behaving, how they're not, you know, it's not an equitable relationship, how our needs are not being met. And they were like, oh, I feel so bad about this, finally, let me meet your needs now, and give you what you want. And instead, they keep suffering. And often, when you were at the suffering style, you've, you've had the others which have essentially fallen on your sword and got into a really sort of tricky spots, where it's like, this is just the only way for me to be and as I said, if you if you identify with suffering, it's not going to feel comfortable for you to be in a situation where you're not. And so it becomes sort of self fulfilling, because you're going to be drawn to people in situations that let you fit that identity of suffering. And if you're the scapegoat, you will be with somebody who never takes responsibility and always wants to dump on you. And when you can realize, oh my gosh, like, for instance, you might be trying to please the parent who always scapegoated you who never sort of recognized you and that you're still doing that through these relationships. And this become an identity, you can be like, oh, my gosh, I do not need to sacrifice myself in this way anymore. 

Robin | No, no. So this is you know, you've got such a like, there's, there's so much of your book is about reclaiming, reclaiming yourself, getting like getting to know yourself, and you've got ways you do that. Right. So when we don't have a lot of time left, because we've got to go through the tools, Natalie, how can we overcome people pleasing, it doesn't happen overnight. That isn't actually a really good lesson that you teach. It's like, you've got to start small. Right? 

Natalie | Yeah.

Robin | Like and it's, it starts by understanding like building boundaries, and saying no, like doing an audit of your life of like, where are you compromising yourself, your needs, your desires? And how do you how do you start small give us examples.

Natalie | So you know, the first step is really to get to know your pleasing so, you know, you can't change something that you don't know. So you need to spend some time just observing without judgment where your pleasing is showing up. And the best way to do that is to recognize where what I call the people pleaser, feelings are showing up. Anxiety, resentment, frustration, overwhelm, irritation, feeling helpless, powerless, overwhelmed, overloaded, or even feeling low, you know, depressed. That is your body's way of letting you know that you've either said yes to something for the wrong reasons, ie people pleasing, or that you have said yes to something that technically you you want to do that it's okay to do. But your approach is how you're going about people pleasing, so you're really not taking good care of yourself. If you can notice, what do you say yes, no, and maybe to in your life. You can start to see, oh, this is where my people pleasing is showing up. This is the person, the thing that sets that off, it's easy to assume, oh, I just people, please everywhere Do you might find that actually when it comes to your friends, you are okay. But when it comes to work or with romantic partners or with family is like, oh my, the wheels come off, you're not gonna know this, that's gonna take some time right to observe. The next thing then is to really, you know, I talked about, you know, recognizing your baggage. So look, it's not that people don't get on our nerves that they don't take liberties, you know that basically that people haven't done us wrong at times, however, we wouldn't react the way that we do, we wouldn't feel about it the way that we do, we wouldn't avoid saying no, being honest about who we are expressing our limits, if we didn't have some baggage behind that type of situation. So it's not that they're not annoying, or whatever it is, but what's the baggage behind it? Where else have you felt fought and acted similarly? So when you notice that something has really unsettled you or you've been triggered into the people pleasing? It's like, pause, what's the baggage behind this? Where else have I felt fought and acted? Similarly? Who or what does this remind me of? And the best example that I always give this is that people will be sharing stories of me, oh, my gosh, this person, I feel so like afraid around them all that type of thing. Where else have you felt for an added similarly, who or what does this remind you of, and then they go, oh, my God, this, this person reminds me of my sister, my dad, my mother, my old school bully, whoever it is, but suddenly, the lights go on. And it's like, ah, that's what's going on. Because then you can start tricking yourself into believing, oh, I have to do things this way. Like you can recognize your baggage is showing up. Like we all have emotional baggage. That's why when I'm saying no in the first place. The next thing then that we can do from there is we can start to reparent ourselves. So you know, people pleasing is a is a child hood habit. It's a childlike response. And it's a maladaptive one. So we it helped us to survive our childhood. But we were not supposed to continue with it into adulthood. And we are not going to be able to reclaim ourselves from her emotional baggage and become more of who we really are, if we are still behaving like a child, in our life. And so when we can reparent ourselves, it's like, recognize and hold on, we are our primary caregiver. And when we are avoiding saying no avoiding expressing our limits, and being honest about who we are, we're acting as if everybody's mommy and daddy or an old school bully, or whoever it might be. And we're forgetting that we were grown up knowing that we have agency. And as you said, it's not an overnight thing. It's a gradual thing. It's not that we don't have parents or other loved ones in our lives, but we are our primary caregiver. And we have got to stop acting as if, well, I can just decimate my needs, desires, expectations, feelings, and opinions, sacrifice myself, and then somehow in the mix of this, I'm going to be taken care of no, it's our job to take care of ourselves. Not in isolation. But if we're not taking care of ourselves, we cannot interact in our relationships in a way that allows them to take care of us too. And then what's next after that, then we go on to hinting no, make it a desire or say no. So very quickly, what that means is, you know, for a lot of people pleasers, we don't realize that a lot of what we do is driven by anxiety. We're not saying yes, because we want to, or even because we genuinely need to, but because we're afraid of what will happen if we don't. So it's really about anxiety, and a sense of obligation,

Robin | Fear 

Natalie | And yeah, exactly this fear. And the thing about doing things because you feel obliged, because you feel afraid is that it always, always, always, always leads to resentment, and problems. And so you've got to start noticing the difference between desire and obligation. And the thing is, we know when we want to do something, and if we don't know that that's the only even a more of a clear indicator about how much of our life is spent trying to please others. But like, when you think about what you want to do versus what you feel obliged to do. If there's a difference between those two things, that's where the people pleasing lies. That's where the tension, friction, resentment, anxiety and all the rest of those things reside. So once you start getting into the habit of noticing the difference between the two, you can then say to yourself, okay, can I get to a place of genuinely wanting to do this because when we do things from a conscious place, as opposed to this automated compliant response, we get to choose and we get to make healthier choices in response to that. And if we can't get to a place of actually wanting to, or he needs to say, no, or, we need to have a conversation with the person to either get more information and you know, to get clarity around whatever the ask is. And then if we don't still want to have that conversation, then there's definitely still, a no. This leads neatly into cutting back on hinting. And so, you know, all people please like basically all people pleasing is hinting it's like, we're essentially trying to Jedi mind trick people into feeling and behaving differently by being pleasing. And so if we it's basically it people pleasing is in direct communication. It's around the houses way of going about saying, I need this, I want this. And instead, it's like, hopefully, you'll figure it out from all of this pleasing, and then we feel resentful. Cut back on the hinting, you're thinking that you're going 70% of the way and the other person will do the rest of the legwork. No, we need to learn to be more direct. And when we are, we will see our people pleasing for what it is and realize where we're being yes, sometimes manipulative, we've are pleasing. It's like, oh, let me do this good thing. And then hopefully, you'll figure out what it is that I need and want, and you're gonna feel obliged to do that, then you're going to reward me stop, I've we've got to stop doing this to ourselves. And then the last is really then to just often when we experienced challenges in our life, we see the best oh my gosh, I'm such a bad person I messed up, I didn't try hard enough, all those things. No, challenges are an opportunity for you to recognize where you need to start saying no. So that you can figure out where you can say yes, those challenges that come about, because it's trying to show you what your boundaries are trying to show you who you really are. And if you can see, start looking at them in that way, then you they won't run you over so much. And it's also important to point out that when you people, please, it's a matter of when not if you're going to erupt. So you're either going to explode and lose it with someone or a whole load of people. So there's going to unleash on them. Or you're going to implode, so break down within so that's the burnout, the illness, the breakdown, you know, that you know, that kind of thing. And so it is a matter of when not if rather than waiting to hit that point. Learn to say no. Or if you have already hit those points, recognize it has not become come about because of your failure as a person is coming back from too much. Yes. And now you need to say no.

Robin | Yes. And that's I mean, that's why the your book is called The Joy of Saying No. Yeah. So I just I so enjoyed our conversation, Natalie and reading your book and learning and, and like you said it like this is this is how we grow. This is how we improve our lives. And the lives of those we're with because it just takes it takes it takes consciousness and takes effort. And it just takes steps is you're not going to do this overnight, right? I'm recovering, but I can see definitely places in my life with people in particular, who I know where I'm, I'm being a people pleaser. So that's where I need that's where I want to focus.I don't want to I don't want to do this anymore. Because it's like I'm going against my own my own self. So

Natalie | We have to recognize that

Robin | It's not good. 

Natalie | We have to be patient and compassionate with ourselves. And rather than being like oh my god, I recognize my people pleaser. And then we want to just leap out of bed tomorrow morning and be like thank you Lord I'm not a people pleaser anymore. Like that's not real life. And so we It didn't take us a hot minute to get into this it's not going to take us an entire lifetime to like see any progress or change either been recognized as people pleasing is going to show up to the world socializes and conditioned you to be a people pleaser. So of course, it's going to show up and you know, you know, spoke to it already us know as a way to grow your relationships. Because when you are in a more honest place, and you cut back on the people pleasing, you experience so much lifestyle, anxiety, overwhelm, and all the rest and instead you get more intimacy connection, you know, love care, trust and respect. And that's always a good thing.

Robin | Yes, well, I'm going to close our conversation with blessings that are based on everything we've just talked about and your work Natalie. So may we learn that re parenting is about connecting with the younger aspects of ourselves that drive our pleaser, so that we can meet our needs, fill the voids and stop trying to right the wrongs of the past. May we learn to speak our true feelings allowing us to enter into more compassionate, honest and present relationships with ourselves and others. And may we learn to find the joy in saying no.

Natalie | Yes, that was beautiful. 

Robin | Amen. 

Natalie | Amen. Preachin Robin

Robin | I just I so enjoyed our time Natalie and I look forward to doing the IG live and having our community interact with you because you're just it is a joy to talk to you and and learn from you. So thank you so much.

Natalie | Oh, thank you so much. And I'll see you when, Robin what an amazing conversation. I look forward to chatting with you again a little bit. 

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At Realloveready podcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.