In today's episode, Robin engages in a captivating conversation with Oren Jay Sofer. Oren teaches meditation and communication internationally. He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is a Certified Trainer of Nonviolent Communication and a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner for the healing of trauma. Together they delve into Oren’s latest book, Your Heart Was Made for This. They explore applying contemplative wisdom to address contemporary challenges such as climate change, oppression, anxiety, and burnout. Join Robin and Oren to unravel the innate traits of the heart we're all born with and gain skills we can learn to grow, make better choices in our lives, and to serve those around us.
We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion
Learn more with Oren:
Your Heart Was Made for This - Oren Jay Sofer
US: https://amzn.to/3QVhHBK
CA: https://amzn.to/3MDnVUd
Say What You Mean: A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication - Oren Jay Sofer
The Tao of Pooh - Benjamin Hoff and E. H. Shepard
FOLLOW OREN:INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | TWITTER
FOLLOW RLR: INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | TWITTER
Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready
Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.
In today's episode, Robin engages in a captivating conversation with Oren Jay Sofer. Oren teaches meditation and communication internationally. He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is a Certified Trainer of Nonviolent Communication and a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner for the healing of trauma. Together they delve into Oren’s latest book, Your Heart Was Made for This. They explore applying contemplative wisdom to address contemporary challenges such as climate change, oppression, anxiety, and burnout. Join Robin and Oren to unravel the innate traits of the heart we're all born with and gain skills we can learn to grow, make better choices in our lives, and to serve those around us.
We want to hear from you! Send us your anonymous questions for the Podcast as well as our weekly IG Live Ask The Experts Q&A. https://realloveready.com/submitaquestion
Learn more with Oren:
Your Heart Was Made for This - Oren Jay Sofer
US: https://amzn.to/3QVhHBK
CA: https://amzn.to/3MDnVUd
Say What You Mean: A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication - Oren Jay Sofer
The Tao of Pooh - Benjamin Hoff and E. H. Shepard
FOLLOW OREN:INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | TWITTER
FOLLOW RLR: INSTAGRAM | FACEBOOK | TWITTER
Watch the podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/realloveready
Credits: the Let’s Talk Love Podcast is hosted by Robin Ducharme, recorded and edited by Maia Anstey, and transcribed by Otter.ai.
Robin Ducharme | Today I had a very insightful conversation with Oren Jay Sofer. Oren teaches meditation, and communication internationally. He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University. He's a certified trainer of nonviolent communication, and a somatic experiencing practitioner or the healing of trauma, and is the author of the best seller, Say What You Mean. Today we talk about his newest book, Your Heart Was Made For This, where he applies the timeless wisdom of contemplative practice to today's most pressing issues, such as climate change, oppression, anxiety, and burnout. I so enjoyed reading Oren's book, learning more about our hearts intelligence, traits we're all born with and skills we can learn to grow, make better choices in our lives, and to serve those around us. I hope that you will download his book and read it, listen to him and learn today, just as I did, enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love.
Robin Ducharme | Hello, everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I am very happy to introduce our guest today, Oren Jay Sofer, Oren, thank you for joining us today.
Oren Jay Sofer | Thanks, Robin. I'm really happy to be here. It's good to meet you.
Robin Ducharme | It's so nice to meet you. And as I do every week, I dive into our guests work and learn, and in this case, practice. And I want to say like I'm just very grateful for the work that you are doing. I think I'm getting I'm getting more and more into mindfulness practices in my daily life. I'm not yet there with meditation, but I've definitely there with the the mindfulness. I'm standing right now so that I can feel the more in my body. And I'm listening to your book that your first book, and I've read your book right now that people this is not out yet, but I'm so,I feel so blessed that I read it all like Oh. So you're this book, that when this episode comes out, your book will be out. So that's very exciting, Oren. And this is your this book is called Your Heart Was Made For This, Contemplative Practices For Meeting a World in Crisis With Courage, Integrity, and Love. So kudos to you for writing this fantastic book.
Oren Jay Sofer | Thanks, yeah, it was definitely a labor of love. And I'm really excited to share it with the world.
Robin | Well, it can it can you please start with your story and tell us how you became, you know, come coming into being such an expert in you know, you've studied Buddhism, you're a teacher and mindfulness, you lead retreats and workshops. And so tell us how you ended up where you're what you're doing now?
Oren | Sure, thanks for the invitation to share. To share that well. It's, it's always interesting, isn't it when we look back at our life, and see how all of the different events that at the time seem random lineup. So some of the things that I can pinpoint and share, I talk a lot in my new book, Your Heart Was Made For This, about some of the challenges I faced, in my family of origin, had a very blessed childhood in many ways. And then one of my immediate family members had a psychotic break, and started suffering from mental illness. And this was a really defining feature my whole life and had a huge effect on my emotions, my personality. And I got really good at avoiding my feelings, and keeping busy because it was overwhelming as a little boy to have such intensity of emotions and so much change. And this was in the late 80s, when there was even more of a really huge stigma about mental health than there is today. So I felt like I couldn't talk about it to anyone and I just suppressed what I was feeling to the point that I had actually convinced myself that I was okay. And things didn't catch up with me until I was in college. And I remember, it was my freshman year. I don't even remember what precipitated it but I remember feeling something deep in my belly. It was this like flutter. And it was kind of like the tremor before an earthquake, where I could feel that there was this immense well of pain and anger that I hadn't dealt with. And I wanted to stop running, I wanted to stop hiding, and being disconnected from myself. At the time I was an actor in New York City, I was one of the ways I ended up keeping busy was getting into acting as a child and running around to auditions in New York City. And I was doing a lot of drugs. And I was also taking classes at university in religion and Asian philosophy, something that really sparked my interest, I had picked up this little book in high school, called The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff, which I highly recommend if, it is a classic. And it introduced me to ideas that in my heart, I felt like, oh, this makes so much sense. I've always kind of believed this was true, even though no one ever said it to me. So I wanted to go deeper into those ideas. And that opened up the possibility of studying abroad, I had this amazing opportunity to go to India. And to kind of start over and clean the slate, I learned about this Buddhist study abroad program where you woke up at 5am every day, you didn't do any drugs, he didn't have sex. And I was like, I, you know, at 19 years old, I was like, sign me up, I need to get out of here and sort of reset. And so I took a deep dive into Buddhism and meditation, and it changed my life. I talk about him the new book, arriving there totally overwhelmed totally, and culture shock, feeling really confused about what the heck was going on. And then hearing some of the teachings from these two incredible teachers, one from India, one from Sri Lanka, and having this deep homecoming inside, where I felt like, oh, this is why I'm here. And not just here in India, like here on the planet, you know, this is sort of what I've been waiting for. And so that started a very different journey for me, of introspection of coming to understand and develop skill around my inner life. And that opened many other doors for me five or six years later, I noticed that the insights and shifts I was having in my meditation practice weren't translating into my relationships at work, at home. And so that's when I came across Marshall Rosenberg's work, the founder of nonviolent communication, and took another deep dive into those skills and started practicing and taking classes and doing retreats and ended up getting certified as a nonviolent communication trainer. And just through my own practice, and deepening in these different modalities of understanding ourselves, and learning how to live in a different way ended up having the opportunity to share them and teach with others. And, you know, writing kind of emerged from that. So that's, that's the short version. Yeah.
Robin | Beautiful. So I, I work with one of my best friends, Kirsten, and we, we work on the podcast together. And so we read together,
Oren | Oh great
Robin | And then we reflect on what we're learning. And we talk about how that translates into our own lives and our own experience. It's actually fantastic to have a sounding board and somebody to collaborate with. And we were talking about, like, what is we were asking each other, like, what is our understanding of this book, and I was having like this eureka moment, even this morning, Oren around you know, first of all mindfulness and you talk about mind heart, sorry, heart mind intelligence. And my understanding in this book is like that's really what this is, it's understanding ourselves and leading our lives more through our hearts. And how I don't think this is talked a lot about is how we actually hone the qualities of our hearts and our hearts can learn and our hearts are inherently we have a lot of like skills that we can develop within our hearts.
Oren | Yeah
Robin | Is that is that a really
Oren | Beautiful summary
Robin | Understood it and now I'm like oh, yeah, like we can we can we can our hearts obviously can grow and become more intelligent and we can apply skills that,
Oren | Yeah
Robin | We can practice and I think that was one of my greatest lessons when I was reading your book
Oren | Wonderful I'm so glad that you took that away from the book and it is one of my main intentions. Um, you know, we know today that there are many different kinds of intelligence, right, so one of the tragic effects of modernity and patriarchy has been this split between the heart and the mind and the elevation of rational intelligence over other forms of knowing, right emotion, intuition, embodied intelligence, indigenous wisdom. So we understand and recognize today, that there are many ways of being intelligent, and understanding and knowing our world. And so one of the aims of the book is to provide a really practical roadmap for how to develop the inner resources, to thrive in an increasingly complex and painful world. And to contribute in meaningful ways. We need an A resources to do that.
Robin | Right.
Oren | And I see contemplative practice which is, which forms the framework of this training as a kind of medicine, for our times, as a way of tapping into these very powerful innate capacities that we have as human beings, that as you so beautifully put it, we can actually cultivate and strengthen everything from empathy, generosity, and gratitude, which we hear a lot about two, maybe less common or recognized strengths and qualities like courage, or renunciation, letting go valuing simplicity, like rest, or wonder, or patience, or resolve, or even one of my favorite qualities in the book, because it can be a little provocative for some people. And I like that I like to redefine things and help people see things in a new way is devotion, which doesn't need to be religious. And I see as an essential aspect of living a meaningful and fulfilling human life is being able to give ourselves to something fully and feel a sense of deep satisfaction and connection to what we're doing. So it's introducing reclaiming and training ourselves, to embody, like the richness and the fullness of what's possible for us as human beings. And then that positions us not only to enjoy our lives a lot more, but also to be more effective and to contribute. And this is the other sort of central message for me of the book, which is, I think that we live in a time where, because there is so much that is gone awry, and fraying and coming apart. That to feel whole to feel some relief from the anxiety and the disturbance that is so commonplace, we need to respond, we need to be engaging with the challenges that are happening in some way that makes sense for each of us enough, I don't have some agenda for what we all should be doing. I think it's really for each of us to discern. But I do know that getting involved in something we care about feels good. It's empowering, it relieves anxiety, it brings energy. And it moves us towards living in the kind of world we want to see for our children and our families.
Robin | I fully agree. I love that Oren. So your book has 26 heart qualities, maybe you can explain that because I wrote down
Oren | Yeah.
Robin | These are 26 best qualities, our inner resources that we we can cultivate, we can grow and hone and practice. And so you you do give a guide different ways that people can read your book. Because you say like if you if you do two of these a week, or sorry, is that correct?
Oren | You're just about to get it right. There's a one every two weeks,
Robin | One every two weeks that'll lead you through the year. And of course, that that's a guide so that's, that's an idea. And, and the way that I the way that I thought about this because I read you know, I read through each quality and I'm like, for instance, you just you just spoke about a few right there's you know, you talk about the there's qualities of play. There's qualities of joy, there's qualities of generosity, and I was I was reading through these I'm like okay, my heart and my my my life If I feel like I'm led by those ones I'm strong at.
Oren | Great. Right
Robin | Okay, so an example would be that I was looking at, I'm like, okay, this one, okay, I'm good, I'm good there. And not that I can't grow that part of me. But there was definitely, definitely a lot of these qualities where I'm like, I need this is where I need to focus.
Oren | Yes.
Robin | So that's where I, that's what I'm like, Okay, this is great. For instance, I didn't, like I don't really, I don't know much about renunciation, like, even that word, like I understand renounce. But renunciation for instance, is, was one for me, I'm like, oh, I want to learn about this one. So that's where I want to concentrate my efforts and my, my understanding so that I can be more applying that quality within my life.
Oren | Yeah, yeah, I'm really glad that you're sharing all this, because it's very much my intention, that and my hope that people use the book in whatever way makes sense to them, right to see it as like a handbook to look and connect with, you know, what do I need right now? And where do I want to grow? What would nourish me what would help me feel more balance in my life, and to be able to hone in on those places to jump around from one chapter to another. And, you know, as as you know, there certain things that we have developed that we are good at, right? Yeah, each of us and how much of that is innate in our character, how much of it is practiced or learned, is less relevant than just recognizing, yeah, these are my strengths. You know, I am good at this I am, I'm playful, or, you know, gosh, you know, I'm able to, to have a lot of energy. That's not a challenge for me. But what is a challenge is concentrating, right? I feel so much passion and energy that it's hard for me to focus. So let's look at that chapter on concentration and see how I can hone my capacity to be more focused in a relaxed way rather than in a way that feels tight or rigid. So these qualities, a lot of different words we can use to describe them sometimes to talk about them as capacities. I like the word that comes out of the neuroscience research and positive psychology of traits, right. And the aim here, and the understanding is that all of these are innate. All of these are capacities that we are born with, that are not all online at the very beginning, as I'm a new parent, and one of the ones that I am really enjoying, seeing develop in different ways is equanimity, which is this capacity for balance perspective, and non reactivity qualities that a newborn is absolutely lacking in because they are so raw and sensitive when they get here. But just seeing this little being our son is now a little over a year, seeing you know, how he does have a little bit more balance and non reactivity. And as he's learning more, as he's developing the capacity for language, you know, how there can start to be some sense of a little bit of perspective, like, you know, we're playing attachment games with him where I'll, I'll say to him, like, hey, I'm going to step away, and I'll be right back, I step out of the room, and he kind of waits on edge, and then you know, jump back in, and he lights up with light like you're back. Because like there's perspective there, he can start to understand that things can change. So all this to say, these qualities, these capacities, these are things that occur for us naturally, as what's known as a state. So we can experience for example, a state of kindness, ease, rest, even renunciation, this capacity to let go to recognize what's enough. These are things that occur for us as human beings naturally in the course of our day in the course of our life. Now, the incredible opportunity we have as human beings, when we begin to understand the mechanisms behind contemplative practice and the inner skill building, is that we can strengthen these capacities. So they're not random experiences, but actually become default character traits in just the way that you recognize, you know, I'm really good at play, and joy. Well, what would it be like to also have some of those other ones that maybe we're less readily able able to embody. Right there? Whenever we need them?
Robin | Yes, and you do you know, in your book you give great yeah, there is. So obviously, there's a lot of science behind this. Right, the neuroscience and you give a lot of story as well in context with your own experience. And with the science piece, I understand this in the way that it's like our habits that we are just so natural,, let's say our our behaviors, it's like, our brain is wired to go this direction, right. And so we have to create or really hone those other pathways to make those pathways stronger, and more readily, so it's so it comes naturally. And that takes practice that takes that takes focus and attention, and awareness. So, and the other, you know, reminder, so many reminders in your book around how our culture is against us in a lot of ways, right? Like, for instance, or technology, our phones, and one of the traits that you talk a lot about, like one of the traits is attention, which is so important. Right?
Oren | Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's the first chapter is it forms the foundation.
Robin | So can you talk to us about that? Please, Oren, how the first the first first five, or sorry? Is it five or six qualities?
Oren | Six, yeah,
Robin | Form the like the foundation for, please talk to us about that.
Oren | Yeah, so if we want to learn how to navigate and steer in our life with more awareness and skill, and if we want to develop a stronger base of inner resources, we need certain foundational skills to do that. And that begins with understanding one that we just have agency over the way we pay attention, over where we place our attention, and how we pay attention, the quality of our attention, and as you're noting so much in our society, is trying to capture and retain our attention.
Robin | Yes
Oren | The media, social media devices, the algorithms that drive them, because when you can attract someone's attention, you can one generate profit, through advertising. And two, you can influence their behavior, you can actually right through persuasive design, we know that with technology, we can actually influence action in the world by influencing someone's attention. So the first step is being able to start to reclaim our attention and have some agency over where we place it. And one of the experiments I invite people to do, which we can we can do right now together to just demonstrate this capacity in its most fundamental way, is to first just notice what you're seeing. And then shift your attention and notice what you're hearing. So, in that way, we just did what I call changing the channel, you shift the focus of your attention, say from one sensory field, like a vision to another, like the auditory or then even say, within the body, you might notice, you said you're standing your feet on the ground. And then you might notice, like you're nodding your head right now, like the movement, those sensations. So in the same way, you just moved your attention from one place to another. We do this all the time, all day long, but we don't notice it.
Robin | Right, we're on autopilot.
Oren | So the more we start to notice this, and make active choices about where we place our attention, that becomes a resource that becomes a skill, we take our power back and begin to have agency over, do I want to look at my device right now do I want to be scrolling through the feed? Do I want to be say ruminating and worrying about this thing that I have no control over? Or do I want to be looking at the trees and taking a breath and nourishing myself. So we start to be able to actually navigate in our world and make choices about how we're using our attention so that instead of being strung out, depleted, overwhelmed and fragmented, we use our time in a way where we're feeling resourced, gathered, collected and stronger, by placing our attention in more and more skillful ways. So this is where the book starts. And then the other qualities or capacities in the first part, form, a kind of very powerful container to develop the rest of the skills in the book. So I look at things like aspiration, which is our vision for ourselves, our life, our world, just the very sense that we can improve, we can grow, we can learn, and really honing in on that. And then how to use these other capacities we have for energy, for mindfulness for paying attention in a clear way, for concentration for stedying and stabilizing our attention and then for wisdom for understanding what's happening, to make better choices and cultivate any quality we want, including the qualities that I didn't have time or space to write about like humor, which is a little bit folded into the chapter on on play, but really deserves its own place or humility, which is, you know, I talk about these, but this list is not exhaustive.
Robin | No, of course not
Oren | In the book, but once we develop the skill of learning how to strengthen our inner worlds, we can apply it in any way we want.
Robin | Yeah. So in the book, you talk about concentration, and you use the term holistic concentration.
Oren | Yeah.
Robin | Can you tell us what that is? What that means?
Oren | Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of times in our lives today, if we are immersed in the dominant culture in the West and the global North, we think about this word and this experience of concentration as something that arises through a certain intensity of willpower, like even that word itself caught, what is it to concentrate, right? It's like, what's concentrated juice, it's like, you know, distilled down to its essence. And there's this sense of a kind of contraction inside,
Robin | I see a picture and there is somebody like looking at a desk, and there's so focused, it's like a little
Oren | Exactly. And hunched, hunched over and applying a lot of force.
Robin | Uncomfortable
Oren | There is yes, yeah. And there is a kind of concentration that comes from that the limit is that it tends to be very brittle. So we can get thrown off very easily. And it's also expensive energetically, we get tired quickly, because it's using so much energy. There's another kind of concentration that all of us have experienced at some point or another, that is more akin to what's known as a flow state where we're relaxed, or focused. But at ease, there's a flexibility, a deep sense of connection and absorption and what's happening, whether we're having a really engrossing conversation with a friend, maybe we're reading a novel that's really captured our attention. Or we're say, looking at a beautiful sunset and just enjoying it. And we don't have to try hard to pay attention and stay focused, because we want to be there. So this is what I referring to as holistic concentration, which is the kind of concentration that comes out of meditative practices. The word the technical word for this in the Buddhist tradition, is called Samadhi. And it literally means put together, held together. So it's a kind of gathering, and collecting of all of our attention, energy and resources. So we can learn how to one recognize when this emerges naturally and then two how to catalyze it by understanding the conditions that lead to it. So some of those key conditions are things like relaxation, genuine interest, and a singleness of intent. So we know what we're doing and why we want to do it. And we've kind of made up our minds in a certain way, like, this is what I'm going to do right now. Right now, I'm giving myself to this. And I'm clear that I'm going to take the next 10 minutes, 20 minutes, hour, and just focus on this. And we're not torn or conflicted inside because we've made that internal decision. So this as we see here, other qualities come into support concentration, like resolve is one that's really, really important in that singleness of intent. And these different conditions of relaxation, interest and a clarity and singleness of intent, create the space for us to enter that kind of flow state to experience a more natural and holistic concentration. And the beauty of that is that it's nourishing, it's sustainable, and it's flexible. We don't get thrown off easily. If the phone rings or somebody says something to us, we can shift our attention there for a few moments, and then come right back. And, you know, I think we can just imagine the range of powerful applications of this, definitely, whether it's a work project, some form of community service, or activism, you know, or even just working through a difficult issue with a colleague or a friend or a lover, you know, to be able to put our attention there and have access to all of our resources inside.
Robin | So for those of us, myself included, that are not meditating on a regular basis, or that I haven't really even stepped into that practice in my life yet, although it's like it's coming, it's percolating, Oren I, like I'm reading, you're reading books that I've read, I know that there's so many people that I'm working with that are meditating, and how they talk about all these beautiful benefits. And I'm wondering, are there different ways that you that you teach people that aren't sitting and in their contemplative practice for a long periods of time? Whether it's, you know, is there is there something is there is like, there's walking meditations, right, like, is it? Is it mind. Like, for instance, I noticed my mind wandering, while I was getting ready this morning. And I'm like, yeah, no, Robin, you could, so I stopped, and I'm, you know, blow drying my hair. And I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna concentrate on this right now. This is what I am doing. And I can see I've got a mirror that I can see outside of the water, I can see the birds flying. So could that be meditation?
Oren | So, yes, yeah. So I think there's there's two there two responses, I want to offer to your question, which I love, by the way, and I think is a beautiful invitation to all of your listeners to step outside of some maybe ideas we might have that limit us in our capacity to grow and develop. So what I part of what I hear you talking about, is the difference between meditation and contemplative practice. Okay, the difference between mindfulness and contemplative practice. So meditation is one form of contemplative practice in the same way that running is one form of exercise, not everyone likes to run, it's not actually healthy for everyone's body. But everyone can find some form of exercise that's meaningful for them, right, regardless of the level of health or ability of their body, you know, even my dad, at the end of his life, towards the end of his life would do exercises, sometimes just with like, you know, breathing more deeply with a little, you know, lung strengthener, they gave him as a form of exercise. So in the same way, sitting still in meditation, or even walking in meditation, may not be everyone's cup of tea. But to say that, well, I don't like to meditate. So I'm not going to do anything that attends to my inner life, is as much of a miss as saying, Well, I don't like to run. So I'm just not going to exercise. So contemplative practice as a whole is anything that strengthens awareness, reflection, and perspective. And that engages us with meaning and purpose in life. And so there are many ways to do that. From things like you just said, I've just like gazing out at the trees, and really enjoying it and being present and that process, to slowing down and really being present and enjoying a cup of tea. To being in nature, art, music, storytelling, dance ritual, they're all of these beautiful, creative ways, we have to strengthen reflexion awareness and connect with a sense of meaning and purpose. So if meditation isn't what we want, so let's go back to concentration. One powerful way to develop concentration is through meditative exercises like breath awareness, or scanning your attention through the body, or even loving kindness, meditation. These are three different practices that all strengthen concentration by choosing a specific object of attention. And then the basic training is whenever your mind wanders, let go, be gentle, friendly and kind with yourself and come back and begin again. So for a variety of reasons, doesn't work for everyone. Not everyone wants to do that. There are other ways to strengthen concen, concentration. So for example, listening to music, and making the choice to instead of listening to music while you're doing XYZ. Just listen to the music,
Robin | Right
Oren | And be fully present. And notice that experience of natural concentration of being present focused, connected, enjoying what's happening as it's unfolding. There's a certain kinds of concentration there. You can do the same thing with eating your food or drinking your coffee, instead of looking at your device, you know, take like the first three minutes of the meal. and just enjoy the food and taste it and feel it and smell it and see it. You're developing concentration by doing that. Similarly, in your day to day life, you can make something as ordinary and routine as folding the laundry into a kind of restorative contemplative practice. And to use it to develop as a skill as powerful as concentration by before you jump into folding the laundry, or, you know, doing the dishes. You set, you set an intention, you say, Okay, I'm going to do the dishes now. I'm not figuring out how I'm going to make rent this month, I'm not going to figure I'm not going to worry about what I'm going to say to that colleague who did that awful thing yesterday. I'm not going to worry about all of these world events that are unfolding. I'm just going to do the dishes.
Robin | Yes.
Oren | And I'm going to feel the warm soapy water. And I'm going to move my hand and rub it oh, you know, and give yourself wholeheartedly to that activity. And then make that the practice. And anytime your mind wanders to these other things, or you start feeling anxious or right, oh, yeah, but right now, all I have to do is do the dishes.
Robin | Right.
Oren | And in that way, doing the dishes kind of becomes a meditation. And we're strengthening all of these really beautiful qualities of patience, resolve, there's even a level of renunciation and that so renunciation, put simply means non addiction. What are we addicted to? Are we addicted to our worry? Are we addicted to our anxiety? Are we addicted to control? Are we addicted to distraction? What would it be like to be able to put those things down when we want to to say I don't need this right now I can let it go and letting it go doesn't mean pushing it away, it means that something relaxes inside, we actually discover a certain kind of freedom and contentment and fulfillment because we are not addicted to these unhealthy habits we're not pulled along or dragged around by them. And we can strengthen that capacity with something as simple as washing the dishes. By practicing it every time that worry about that conversation with the colleague comes up we say, yeah, not now. Later. And we allow the heart to put it down to let it go. And in that moment, we're strengthening. We're learning how to do that.
Robin | Wow, I just love this. I really do. So it's great. In your in your book. You talk about wisdom. So big word. It really is. I love I wrote down some quotes, you say Buddha mentioned two causes for the arising of wisdom. Number one, our own careful attention and two input from others. Right? We need feedback to accurately see our conditioning and actions at all levels.
Oren | Right.
Robin | This was I love this because I think this is absolutely true. You we have we have to have people around us to show us like it's our reflection, right? If I lived in the woods by myself isolated. I'm trying to practice all of these hard qualities, these traits and and hone them. It's like if I don't have somebody else to be that reflection back. How do I know if I am growing in these ways?
Oren | Yeah, so we can't see, good. Can't see.I 'm so glad. Yeah, it was a revelation for me when I first heard that teaching. And the slightly ableist way of putting it, but I think it drives home the point is like we can't see our own blind spots.It's like we can't see what we can't see. We don't see our own ignorance. So we need other people to hopefully in a loving and kind way, point out to us, right? Hey, you know this, you might want to take a look at this. Right? So wisdom as defined, in the Buddhist tradition, which is where a lot of my training is rooted in means a few things. It means one, the ability to discern the difference between what's helpful and what's harmful to us.
Robin | Yes, it's our choices
Oren | To recognize, yeah, to recognize internally, the impulses that arise the different intentions, right, we're all mixed bag. We've all got beautiful Are isn't that we've all got parts that are not so becoming. And that if we don't pay attention to them can create a lot of complexity, entanglement, difficulty, pain or harm in our lives and in our world. And because we're complex, and our motivations are often mixed, or multifaceted, it's important to develop that capacity to tease apart, right, which aspects of what I'm about to say or want to do are coming from a good place inside, which would be defined as a place that's going to lead to some benefit for ourselves or others, and a place that's not so good, that's going to actually lead to more harm or entanglement or pain. This is one aspect of wisdom. The deeper aspect of wisdom is starting to understand how and why we suffer, what actually makes life more painful and difficult for us, and what moves us in the direction of more wholeness, and peace. And this comes, as you noted, and in that, quote, by being able to track our experience carefully, by actually being able to notice, like, what are the choices I'm making, and what are the results. So there's a certain kind of continuity of awareness that's needed to develop wisdom and some wisdom develops naturally, just through life by living. Other wisdom, we need to really attend to to develop the analogy I like to use, or one analogy, I like to use for the development of wisdom is driving somewhere. So if I am going someplace in a car, and I'm sitting in the passenger seat, and I'm engaged in a conversation, I might not be paying attention to how I get from point A to B. So I'm not going to learn how to do that I don't develop the understanding of how to get there. Whereas if I'm in the driver's seat, and I'm actively following the directions, as long it's not too complicated, you know, I know that well, we went down that main street, and we turned left at the traffic light with the church on the corner. And then over there by that yellow house, we turned right. And that's how we got here. Because I was there I made the turns, I saw it happen. Yeah. So in the same way in our life, are we actually paying attention to the unfolding of events, and the intentions that are arising, what's feeding into our choices, the actual activity of our choices, and then the results of our choices, we need to be able to track that whole process from beginning to middle to end to develop insight and understanding about our inner life and the way we relate to our world and develop more wisdom. So we recognize, you know, last time I sent an email, and I was feeling this way, that did not work out so well. So maybe I'm just gonna pause and sit on this one until tomorrow, or I'll send it to a colleague and ask them for feedback before I said, it would be a really kind of, you know, ordinary example, I think we could all relate to. But if we're not tracking things in that way, we don't develop the wisdom.
Robin | Right. So I love how you broke it down into the two parts are in because you give some good stories in your in your book and examples of how, you know we can all have the best intentions. Yeah, unfortunately, sometimes that those intentions could hurt another, you have the you have the best intentions, right? And your actions, choices. hurt another. It's not intentional. But it happens. This happens to us a lot. Because you could be you could be like I'm walking around I am I am concentrating, I am focused, and very conscious about being a loving, kind individual, and not wanting to hurt anybody along my way. Yeah, that's just not the reality, because we're all living a different experience. And you could have the best of intentions. And still, you could you could unintentionally harm somebody. And you have to learn from that and then choose differently. If you give this example Oren in your book about I think you were you were teaching at a retreat or a seminar and you were wanting to connect with a woman that you are working with, ours, that maybe she was a student. I'm sorry, I don't remember but the details I was
Oren | We were both participants.
Robin | Yes. Okay. Can you tell that story? Please aren't because this was?
Oren | Absolutely. Yeah. So I just gonna tack on to what you said, and then I'll tell the story is like intention is important, but it's not everything because we also need wisdom and skill in the execution of our actions. And under part of that is understanding the context. And this beautiful point you made of the lived reality of others, which can be different from ours. So the story I tell was, I was at a at a retreat, I was a participant And I was sitting next to an African American woman who was coloring. And I was feeling quite inspired by the program. And I was in a good mood and a good space. And I wanted to connect. And I leaned over and I put my hand on her shoulder, and I was like, hey, you know what this beautiful. What are you drawing? And later, I learned, she kind of froze up, which I felt in the moment was like, oh, okay, like I did something wrong here. And later, she had the kindness and the generosity, to connect with one of the facilitators of the program, have a little support, present and share with me that like that felt like a violation, you know, that you touched me without asking my permission. And I immediately understood that I you know, as this is an aspect of my male privilege and feeling entitled, and not being not in that moment, recognizing not only the history of violence of men against women, but also the complexity of my being white and her being African American, and the history of violence of white people, and particularly white men against African American women. And all of that was contained for her. And that one moment, as soon as she pointed it out, I just have chosen my body, right, and actually telling the story, I was just like, oh, my God, you know, here I am a meditation teacher, a mindfulness practitioner. And, you know, I was so unconscious in that moment. And of course, my intention, just wanted to connect was trying to be friendly. But the expression of that connection, given the context was completely had a completely different impact, and effect. And so because of my training, both in meditation, and also in communication, I didn't get defensive.
Robin | Right.
Oren | I was able to hear what she was saying, I was able to take it in, to to, you know, to express some sincere remorse, and then to learn from it to actually reflect on it and say, like, you know, gosh, like, what was going on for me in that moment? How was I so unconscious, to really engage in a process of self reflection, so that, as you kind of indicated, like, I was actually learning from that experience, and in the future, being able to step outside of my own frame of reference, which is, I think one of the skills that we need so deeply in our world today is to not assume that everyone sees and experiences the world in the same way we do, and to have some humility around our own views, assumptions and orientation.
Robin | Yes, I love that example Oren. And that right, there is their practice of wisdom. Because it has two parts to it. Right?
Generosity and courage, there was so many traits involved with that whole interaction. I love that. So the other the other that I, they're also really, they're so important for us to embody and live and learn from the other trait that you know, is curiosity. And that's you were practicing that, in that example, as well. It's like, rather than being defensive, and turning this on, like, oh, but I was just being loving and kind. Right, and which is what we can do as human beings. It's like protecting ourselves rather than opening up and being curious around. Oh, yeah right. And I think so all of these, like you said, it's like, the foundation of all this contemplative practices that are so important for us to do. It's like, allow us to have space to step out of our own experience. And into that place of like, oh, my goodness, I think in this, it gives you it just gives you more, I was thinking about this, you know, the saying that we're we're spiritual beings having a human experience. And it puts you more in the observer place.
Oren | Yeah, yeah.
Robin | Where you can step back and be like, this isn't this is about all this is about both of us. And our experience. This is an, right, right? And out of your head and into your heart.
Oren | Yes. Yeah. Well, what's beautiful about it, it for me is that it puts us in both the observer and the participant. Yeah, at the same time, and I think that that's one of the sort of rare capacities we have as human beings that as often a kind of peak experience where we are deeply connected to and intimate with our life, but not consumed by it, where we still we have that access to perspective and able to observe, but without disconnecting from what's happening.
Robin | Yeah, wow, I've just so enjoyed this conversation Oren I feel like I just like what your voice is, you must hear this a lot, but it's so soothing. I'm feeling a piece.
Oren | Oh that's nice
Robin | But also I'm feeling energized at the same time.
Oren | That is great
Robin | It's been a really joyful conversation and a great learning. And I look forward to reflecting more and learning reading your book. I'm not I'm not putting it down because I've not done this. Obviously, this is a practice that we can we I hope that everybody reads this book that this listening, your book is called Your Heart Was Made For This. And it's is it is it true that your book is coming out November 21? Is that your date?
Oren | Yep. Just a couple of days before Thanksgiving
Robin | Is so exciting. Well, I hope that everybody reads your book and listens to it, are you going to be doing an audio as well?
Oren | It's already recorded.
Robin | Oh good
Oren | It's the same time as the print version. and and uh, yeah, I did, I did the reading, which was really fun.
Robin | I think that is so powerful when the author reads their own book, and your voice is the perfect voice for reading your work. So I close every, every conversation with a blessing. And really, it's like, it's a cullmination of what I've learned from you. And so don't do that, you know, if you're open to it.
Oren | Lovely. Yeah.
Robin | So may we aspire to be more mindful of the experience of life, so we can live with hearts that are resolved and whole. May we keep our hearts buoyant and bright, by feeding them with experiences of playfulness and moments of pure joy. And may be discover the intelligence and capacity of our hearts, to mold, to change and to grow. Through mindfulness and skillful practice, we can choose to act with kindness and love. By doing so we impact our own lives, the lives of those around us and ultimately, the world. So, thank you for all the important work you're doing Oren. And it was it was just a joy to speak with you today.
Oren | Ditto, thank you so much for having me on the show and engaging so deeply with the book. It's been a real pleasure.
Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts, at Reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com. We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening, to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.